More Alternate Leaders?

[Zaarin]

And yet you dislike Cleopatra as the default Egyptian leader.

Septimius Severus was Roman on his mother's side; Cleopatra was 100% Macedonian and very nearly 100% Ptolemy because who needs new genes in the gene pool?

So, between Ethiopia, Aksum, or Sabaea, which one leader do you think they will go with?

I'm hoping for Zara Ya'qob, but I'm kind of expecting Menelik II.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Septimius Severus was Roman on his mother's side; Cleopatra was 100% Macedonian and very nearly 100% Ptolemy because who needs new genes in the gene pool?

Don't forget that under the Empire, the term 'Roman' more often meant Roman Citizen than Roman Genetics. That resulted not only in an 'African' Emperor in Severus, but a 'Spanish' Emperor in Trajan. The longer the Empire lasted, the thinner the Roman genes got, even at the highest level.

And another thought: IF, as they claimed, the Ptolemies were following the Pharoanic tradition marrying strictly within the family, which were Macedonian blondes (Ptolemy Soter being frequently identified as Alexander's half-brother) then where did the so often-depicted brunette Cleopatra come from? I know the blonde genes are recessive, but by rights the 'Egyptian' black hair should have never gotten into the gene pool at all.

 

[The Kingmaker]

Wigs? Stylized artwork?

 

[Patine]

but a 'Spanish' Emperor in Trajan.

To be pedantic, a 'Hispanian' Emperor (as in the Roman Province of Hispania, that covered, more or less, the whole Iberian peninsula previously inhabited by Celtiberians, Vascones, Aquitainians, Lusitanians, Tartellians, and a few other ethnicities, as well as a few Carthaginian colonies on the southern tip). The concept of a 'Spanish' nationality, or even ethnic ethnicity, didn't exist until Holy Roman Emperor Karl V also became Carlos I, King of Castile, Aragon, Navarre, and the Newly-Conquered Granada, Canary Islands, and West Indies, after the deaths of the Catholic Monarchs - Isabella of Castile and Ferdinand of Aragon - and politically united those nations, previously ruled in personal union, into a single kingdom, at the very start of the 1500's.

 

[Zaarin]

And another thought: IF, as they claimed, the Ptolemies were following the Pharoanic tradition marrying strictly within the family, which were Macedonian blondes (Ptolemy Soter being frequently identified as Alexander's half-brother) then where did the so often-depicted brunette Cleopatra come from? I know the blonde genes are recessive, but by rights the 'Egyptian' black hair should have never gotten into the gene pool at all.

It's worth remembering that virtually all post-Classical depictions of Cleopatra are extremely romanticized, depicting her as far more Egyptian than she would have actually appeared in life; in all likelihood she dressed and appeared as a Hellenistic noblewoman in a haemition and curled updo (as is supported by contemporary depictions of her). Most Roman paintings of her seem to portray her with dark blond/light brown hair. Wikipedia notes that she did have one Persian ancestor.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

To be pedantic, a 'Hispanian' Emperor (as in the Roman Province of Hispania, that covered, more or less, the whole Iberian peninsula previously inhabited by Celtiberians, Vascones, Aquitainians, Lusitanians, Tartellians, and a few other ethnicities, as well as a few Carthaginian colonies on the southern tip). The concept of a 'Spanish' nationality, or even ethnic ethnicity, didn't exist until Holy Roman Emperor Karl V also became Carlos I, King of Castile, Aragon, Navarre, and the Newly-Conquered Granada, Canary Islands, and West Indies, after the deaths of the Catholic Monarchs - Isabella of Castile and Ferdinand of Aragon - and politically united those nations, previously ruled in personal union, into a single kingdom, at the very start of the 1500's.

There are some folks living in the vicinity of Barcelona who will argue strenuously that there is not really a Spanish Nationality to this day, only Catalans and Other Riffraff. I got personally introduced to this concept in a bar in Barcelona about 30 years ago - at great length, in a variety of languages.

It's worth remembering that virtually all post-Classical depictions of Cleopatra are extremely romanticized, depicting her as far more Egyptian than she would have actually appeared in life; in all likelihood she dressed and appeared as a Hellenistic noblewoman in a haemition and curled updo (as is supported by contemporary depictions of her). Most Roman paintings of her seem to portray her with dark blond/light brown hair. Wikipedia notes that she did have one Persian ancestor.

Given the Macedonian royalty and aristocracy's breeding, which could charitably be described as more enthusiastic than selective, I'd be surprised if her ancestry didn't have a distinctly International flavor, at least dating back to Grandpa Soter.

As for her depiction, I blame Cecil B. DeMille and Liz Taylor, personally . . .

 

[PhoenicianGold]

To be pedantic, a 'Hispanian' Emperor (as in the Roman Province of Hispania, that covered, more or less, the whole Iberian peninsula previously inhabited by Celtiberians, Vascones, Aquitainians, Lusitanians, Tartellians, and a few other ethnicities, as well as a few Carthaginian colonies on the southern tip). The concept of a 'Spanish' nationality, or even ethnic ethnicity, didn't exist until Holy Roman Emperor Karl V also became Carlos I, King of Castile, Aragon, Navarre, and the Newly-Conquered Granada, Canary Islands, and West Indies, after the deaths of the Catholic Monarchs - Isabella of Castile and Ferdinand of Aragon - and politically united those nations, previously ruled in personal union, into a single kingdom, at the very start of the 1500's.

Actually, the Iberian peninsula was (mostly) united earlier under the Visigothic Kingdom. The Visigothic Code in the mid-600s in fact legally united the romani and gothi into a collective term hispani.

To be sure, Ferdinand and I believe the entire idea of a united Spain relied heavily on the Visigothic Code as a basis for unification. However, just like the concept of a unified "Italy" existed, at least in theory, as early as the Ostrogothic Kingdom, the idea of "Hispania" far predated the HRE.

ALSO, by the by, I've been thinking about the Goths, their influence, their popularity, and the likelihood of a Gothic civ led by Theoderic and that made me even more sympathetic to the idea of a separate Byzantium civ under certain circumstances. Because if Theoderic is included, Theodora cannot (I know Peter and Pedro exist, but I think for the most part the devs don't want leader names easily confused). And if Theodora cannot represent Byzantium, then there is really no point in implementing early Byzantium (sorry, not sorry Justinian). The solution the devs will pivot to if they settle on a Gothic Civ, is late Byzantium. Probably also under a female ruler, probably Irene (who, we've been over this, was not the most influential Byzantine emperor overall, but was certainly as relevant as the likes of CdM, Eleanor, etc.)

 

[Patine]

There are some folks living in the vicinity of Barcelona who will argue strenuously that there is not really a Spanish Nationality to this day, only Catalans and Other Riffraff. I got personally introduced to this concept in a bar in Barcelona about 30 years ago - at great length, in a variety of languages.

Yes, and Basques, as well. But, where I'm living in Canada, there are notable numbers of Quebecois, First Nations, and Inuit, and a few Acadiens, Newfoundlanders, people from the Four Western Provinces, who dislike the idea of Canadian nationhood.

Actually, the Iberian peninsula was (mostly) united earlier under the Visigothic Kingdom. The Visigothic Code in the mid-600s in fact legally united the romani and gothi into a collective term hispani.

To be sure, Ferdinand and I believe the entire idea of a united Spain relied heavily on the Visigothic Code as a basis for unification. However, just like the concept of a unified "Italy" existed, at least in theory, as early as the Ostrogothic Kingdom, the idea of "Hispania" far predated the HRE.

ALSO, by the by, I've been thinking about the Goths, their influence, their popularity, and the likelihood of a Gothic civ led by Theoderic and that made me even more sympathetic to the idea of a separate Byzantium civ under certain circumstances. Because if Theoderic is included, Theodora cannot (I know Peter and Pedro exist, but I think for the most part the devs don't want leader names easily confused). And if Theodora cannot represent Byzantium, then there is really no point in implementing early Byzantium (sorry, not sorry Justinian). The solution the devs will pivot to if they settle on a Gothic Civ, is late Byzantium. Probably also under a female ruler, probably Irene (who, we've been over this, was not the most influential Byzantine emperor overall, but was certainly as relevant as the likes of CdM, Eleanor, etc.)

Yes, but the Visigothic concept of "Hispani" is not the same, or even truly contiguous, with the modern vision of Spanish nationality. Spanish nationality was born out of the violent crucible and forge of the Reconquista and further galvanized by the successes of Conquistadors and heavily tied to Catholicism, at least in origin. Even though the prefix "re-" is used in "Reconquista" the vision of Pelayo was quickly forgotten and no Spanish monarch, magnate, conqueror, missionary, commander, inquisitor, or bishop was ever viewing themselves as restoring a kingdom created by an old Germanic Warlord conquering an undefended Roman Province and following the long-dead Arian heresy as their state religion. That is why the concept of "Hispani" and "Spanish" nationality are so very distinct, and not viewed as contiguous or a direct succession, even long after the fires of the Reconquista, Inquisition, and Conquest in the New World have died down.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

Yes, but the Visigothic concept of "Hispani" is not the same, or even truly contiguous, with the modern vision of Spanish nationality. Spanish nationality was born out of the violent crucible and forge of the Reconquista and further galvanized by the successes of Conquistadors and heavily tied to Catholicism, at least in origin. Even though the prefix "re-" is used in "Reconquista" the vision of Pelayo was quickly forgotten and no Spanish monarch, magnate, conqueror, missionary, commander, inquisitor, or bishop was ever viewing themselves as restoring a kingdom created by an old Germanic Warlord conquering an undefended Roman Province and following the long-dead Arian heresy as their state religion. That is why the concept of "Hispani" and "Spanish" nationality are so very distinct, and not viewed as contiguous or a direct succession, even long after the fires of the Reconquista, Inquisition, and Conquest in the New World have died down.

Just because the ethnic distinction disappeared doesn't mean the Visigoths weren't integrated to some degree or another into post-Reconquista identity. Sure, the political continuity wasn't recognized because the rulers were Germanic and the Gothic language became antiquated and died. But ethnically speaking, the people of Spain by the time of the Reconquista were a fairly homogenous (for the time period) mix of Gothic and Latin heritage. Not to mention, Spain's whole Catholic agenda, not just under the HRE but unification under the Catholic monarchs, was set in motion by the Goths, what with the conversion of the monarchy to Catholicism and the Councils of Toledo defining the last century of Gothic rule.

Sure, the modern Spanish identity doesn't like to think about its messy origins as a Germanic-Roman offshoot taken over by West Arabia. But it's still there, and arguably the only thing about the Goths that was dissonant with and never integrated into the Kingdom of Spain was their language, which was quickly relegated to liturgical use much like Greek or Latin. There are large portions of the Byzantine Empire that don't identify as successors to the Byzantines, either, despite owing a large part of their upstart to Byzantine influence (see: Bulgaria, Turkey). But Bulgaria I don't believe was ever ethnically Byzantine like the Spanish were Gothic?

I'm not arguing for a second Gothic Spanish leader, here, because I think regardless of the basis the idea of a Germanic-speaking Spain leader is just too dissonant and esoteric. Not to mention that by rights any Gothic representation should probably be as the unified Gothic Empire under Theoderic. I'm just noting that like the Bulgars, who were originally Turkic but took on a more Slavic identity over time, identity is fluid. Bulgaria still cites to and is proud of its Turkic heritage, and there is nothing shameful about associating with the Visigothic Kingdom. There really isn't much reason other than centuries-old propaganda supporting the idea that Hispania did not exist before Spain. Because it totally did. It was called Toledo.

Though now that we have an Occitan-speaking leader for England, I guess weirder things are now possible. Theoderic leads Spain and Italy!

 

[Patine]

Just because the ethnic distinction disappeared doesn't mean the Visigoths weren't integrated to some degree or another into post-Reconquista identity. Sure, the political continuity wasn't recognized because the rulers were Germanic and the Gothic language became antiquated and died. But ethnically speaking, the people of Spain by the time of the Reconquista were a fairly homogenous (for the time period) mix of Gothic and Latin heritage. Not to mention, Spain's whole Catholic agenda, not just under the HRE but unification under the Catholic monarchs, was set in motion by the Goths, what with the conversion of the monarchy to Catholicism and the Councils of Toledo defining the last century of Gothic rule.

Sure, the modern Spanish identity doesn't like to think about its messy origins as a Germanic-Roman offshoot taken over by West Arabia. But it's still there, and arguably the only thing about the Goths that was dissonant with and never integrated into the Kingdom of Spain was their language, which was quickly relegated to liturgical use much like Greek or Latin. There are large portions of the Byzantine Empire that don't identify as successors to the Byzantines, either, despite owing a large part of their upstart to Byzantine influence (see: Bulgaria, Turkey). But Bulgaria I don't believe was ever ethnically Byzantine like the Spanish were Gothic?

I'm not arguing for a second Gothic Spanish leader, here, because I think regardless of the basis the idea of a Germanic-speaking Spain leader is just too dissonant and esoteric. Not to mention that by rights any Gothic representation should probably be as the unified Gothic Empire under Theoderic. I'm just noting that like the Bulgars, who were originally Turkic but took on a more Slavic identity over time, identity is fluid. Bulgaria still cites to and is proud of its Turkic heritage, and there is nothing shameful about associating with the Visigothic Kingdom. There really isn't much reason other than centuries-old propaganda supporting the idea that Hispania did not exist before Spain. Because it totally did. It was called Toledo.

Though now that we have an Occitan-speaking leader for England, I guess weirder things are now possible. Theoderic leads Spain and Italy!

Yes, but I was talking about ethnic IDENTITY and nationality, not genetics and pre-national history. As for Theodoric, I would far rather see a separate and district Gothic civilization than see him contrived and forced in as a dual leader of Spain and Italy, which both, as nations, identities, and ethnicities, have VERY different expectations of how they're defined and seen today, and didn't exist, as such, in Theodoric's day, except as etymologies from Roman province names, which is a VERY weak tie.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

Yes, but I was talking about ethnic IDENTITY and nationality, not genetics and pre-national history. As for Theodoric, I would far rather see a separate and district Gothic civilization than see him contrived and forced in as a dual leader of Spain and Italy, which both, as nations, identities, and ethnicities, have VERY different expectations of how they're defined and seen today, and didn't exist, as such, in Theodoric's day, except as etymologies from Roman province names, which is a VERY weak tie.

YES, but I was TALKING about DE FACTO ethnicity AND culture, NOT the SILLY self-made FACTIONS and LABELS they SELECTIVELY identify BY.
Oh WAIT i WAS talking ABOUT that AS WELL.

OOMpa OOMpa OOMpa OOMpa.

You are advocating on behalf of people who are too dead to care, and something that isn't even absolutely true so much as it is a cultural truth. And if modern Spaniards are still so averse to the idea of being part Gothic, then holy birdbowls Spain is backwards.

I would rather see Theoderic lead Gothia as well, I believe we are in accord on that. I don't think it's worth going any more into the nuances of why it may not matter in the face of VI's design philosophy.

 

[Patine]

YES, but I was TALKING about DE FACTO ethnicity AND culture, NOT the SILLY self-made FACTIONS and LABELS they SELECTIVELY identify BY.
Oh WAIT i WAS talking ABOUT that AS WELL.

OOMpa OOMpa OOMpa OOMpa.

You are advocating on behalf of people who are too dead to care, and something that isn't even absolutely true so much as it is a cultural truth. And if modern Spaniards are still so averse to the idea of being part Gothic, then holy birdbowls Spain is backwards.

I would rather see Theoderic lead Gothia as well, I believe we are in accord on that. I don't think it's worth going any more into the nuances of why it may not matter in the face of VI's design philosophy.

So, are of the REAL belief that modern Spanish and Italian CULTURE and ETHNICITIY - not GENETICS - are anywhere near reminiscent or recognizable in any real or logical sense that make people who don't punctuate their response posts with cave-man noises for effect would consider to have in common with the Dark Ages Visigoths? REALLY? You're not even thinking! You're basically just declaring you're opinion is automatically right and correct, because it's your opinion, and resort to ridiculing others' opinions like a Middle Schooler would when your academic backing dries, like you've done on these forums, before. No doubt, judging by precedent of behaviour that I have previously observed in your posts, personal attacks on me using made up and conjured (and thus completely false) personal information on me as ammunition, because you know next to nothing about me in truth, is going to follow if you get frustrated enough by myself, and other posters, thwarting your pet theories with facts of any sort. I've already seen this happen several times. The cave-man noises are new, but I'm not sure they're quite novel, per say.

 

[leif erikson]

Moderator Action: Please cease the personal attacks and get back on topic. If you wish to discuss detailed historical fact, genetics and ethnicity, we have a history forum for this. Please return to civility.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[awesome]

Septimius Severus was Roman on his mother's side; Cleopatra was 100% Macedonian and very nearly 100% Ptolemy because who needs new genes in the gene pool?


I'm hoping for Zara Ya'qob, but I'm kind of expecting Menelik II.

Fun fact, though: Arsinoe was probably part African
Not sure if they've found anything about it in the last decade.

 

[Patine]

Fun fact, though: Arsinoe was probably part African
Not sure if they've found anything about it in the last decade.

But, do you mean "Africa," as in the modern useage, and the one since the early 1400's - the second-largest continent on Earth in both area and population with 56 sovereign nations, almost entirely tropical (dry, wet, or mixed) climate, and majority inhabited by the "African" or "Black" anthropological race, or as the Romans defined "Africa" in Antiquity - the north coast of what is now Algeria and Morocco?

 

[awesome]

But, do you mean "Africa," as in the modern useage, and the one since the early 1400's - the second-largest continent on Earth in both area and population with 56 sovereign nations, almost entirely tropical (dry, wet, or mixed) climate, and majority inhabited by the "African" or "Black" anthropological race, or as the Romans defined "Africa" in Antiquity - the north coast of what is now Algeria and Morocco?

Modern scientists, so probably the modern usage, considering it probably would've said "Berber," if that's what it meant.
It was Arsinoe, not Cleopatra herself, so it probably isn't as important historically, but it's more of a cool thing than anything else.