More City-States Types - More Diplomacy and Strategy

[Estarrioll]

My suggestion is quite simple.

There are three types of city-states as it is - militaristic, cultural and maritime. Their bonuses "covers" three basic needs - army, culture and food. However, we have more "needs" to cover, i.e. production, science and gold.

So implementation of trade (gold), scientific and workshop (artisan) city-states seems like a right thing to do.

I also would change bonuses from militaristic states - units given are too weak/useless too often. Maybe some exp for our units (as if an allied militaristic CS sends us some military specialists), or attack/defense bonuses.

To balance this system I suggest more demanding conditions for CS alliances. Now we are limited by gold only - and if there are too many CS in our alliance, their favor decreases faster. Maybe some restrictions should be made - for example, one can't ally with both cultured and militaristic state. Also, some states should hate each other, so one can't be an ally with both of them. This will give us more fun in diplomacy and something to think about: "Do I need to woo this cultured state, or militaristic bonus will be much more helpful right now?"

Oh, and also there should be more ways to gain influence. For instance, any cultural World Wonder gives a permanent +10/+20 bonus with all cultural CS, strong military and militaristic WW helps with militaristic CS and so on.

What do you think? Maybe there have been similar ideas - sorry, haven't found.

 

[PieceOfMind]

I agree the game could be a lot more interesting if the city-state diplomacy was more thought-provoking. At the moment there are city-state mini quests, sometimes quests that are feasible for the player, but most of the time dealing with them is just a matter of gifting the gold and reaping the rewards. As another forum member pointed out, it's basically a "buy food" or "buy culture" game mechanic. Near the end of the game, city states are there for a "buy votes" game mechanic. (something I really dislike after having won a game that way)

Sorry I don't have much by way of suggestions of my own, but I think this is a good area to focus on.

 

[Franks]

I had an idea some days ago about a merchant type City-States (MCS).

They would be gold loaners. To gain influence with them, you would need to take loans from them. Instead of you giving them gold, they would give you gold, with interest rates varying on status. Those loans would be paid back in 30 turns.

For example:

100g / 250g / 1000g loans


Neutral: 15% interest rate (only 100g loans available)

100g @ 15% interest rate, pay back 115g over 30 turns = ~3.8g/turn


Friends: 10% interest rate (unlocks 250g loans)

* Establish a trade route between your capital and the City-State

100g @ 10% interest rate, pay back 110g over 30 turns = ~3.6g/turn
250g @ 10% interest rate, pay back 275g over 30 turns = ~9.2g/turn (gives more influence than 100g loans)

Allies: 0% interest rate (unlocks 500g / 1000g loans)

500g over 30 turns = ~16.7g/turn
1000g over 30 turns = ~33.3g/turn (more influence than 500g loans)

I'm trying to think what new bonus Allied status MCS could give. I think a redistribution of the interest rates profits to the Allied civ would be a great mechanic and would represent a interdependent economy system.


Issues / Suggestions:

* When you take a loan, a forced peace treaty for the duration of the pay back (30 turns) should be in effect.

* Different values should be used to eliminate decimals.

* Perhaps gold amounts of loans should be dropped a bit, 16g/33g per turn seems quite high but it could do fine if some buildings are added, such as a Trade Center building, granting gold per/turn depending on X or Y factors, such as resources or number of merchant city-states allies.

* Influence gains would need to be tweaked so you don't need to bankrupt yourself to get to Allied status. Perhaps there should be a limit on loans allowed.

* City-States should be able to detect if you'll be able to fully pay back and refuse to loan you gold if it's not the case.

* Would love to see a World Trade Center added to Modern Era, granting huge amounts of gold per/turn for each merchant City-States allies, the wonder could require 3 allies of this type to be built. It could also give an amount of gold per/turn for each mutual open border agreements with other civs.

Gameplay impact (speculation):

* This CS type would become gold sucking CS, since all players will compete to get at Allied status (and Friends would still be profitable because of the trade route), so the MCS will make tons of gold from interest rates, and those profits would go right in the pocket of the Allied civ.

* Merchant City-States (MCS) around the world would differ in terms of value, since a hostile MCS woudnt be too profitable or a MCS who is not doing business with lots of civs would be less interesting.

* The enforced 30 turn peace treaty when you take a loan would make the MCS survivability rate way higher and defending those CS would be a MUST, I can see many civs doing business with a MCS declaring on one civ because that civ declared on the MCS in question.

Overall I think it would make the game way more interesting and fun.

About Military CS, they should give a STR bonus to your troops and lower their upkeep a bit.


ps:sorry for my poor english.

 

[Estarrioll]

Wow, great idea, and also detailed. Glad to have some feedback.

 

[Scilly_guy]

Franks your English is fine, I didn't realise it wasn't your first language.

I'm sure the developers will be adding more types of city states, it simply makes sense.

I think currently there is some diplomatic costs to being friends with two CS that don't like each other, I had Dublin and Copenhagen at my borders, when Dublin decided it didn't like Copenhagen my influence started decreasing at 1.5x speed, presumably because I was friends with Copenhagen.

 

[dexters]

I've tried to make GOLD > GPT deals with the AI.

Even giving them 0 interest, where I front a lump sum gold upfront and they pay it back to me in 30 installments, the AI refused it.

This is massively broken. The Civ3 AI could take and make interest loans, why can't the Civ5 AI. There's zero risk to them, they get the gold up front, all I want to do as a player is make a bit of gold on the side as interest.

Putting this back in the game would allow for more interesting diplomatic play and allow players to subsidize a Civ they want to support with a massive cash upfront while siphoning some of their GPT plus interest back. This also helps players 'manage' their gpt income rather than letting it sit on a pile in their treasury doing nothing.

 

[PyroMancer]

I agree that City States need to have more options not only in what they give but in how they interact.

For example I think it would be more interesting if City States were more like trade partners. Currently you end up with a lot of extra Luxury Goods that you can't really trade off. I think it would be more interesting if you negotiated trade deals with city states for their resources using your extras.

This way they would feel more alive then simply I pay them a bunch of gold and they like me. Cause honestly that's all they are right now. You either pay gold and get them to like you or you take them over.

The side quest are so random it's more luck of the draw if you can complete them. I mean getting request for a specific great person is kinda annoying. Or the request to connect a road to your capital from a city on the other side of continent. Or my personal favor you make friends with two city states and suddenly they don't like each other and one or both as you to destroy the other.

The trade pacts could be based off their City type. So for example you trade a luxury good for a food bonus from a maritime city. Where as you'd trade for a culture boost from culture city. You could also trade for their Luxury and Strategic goods as well.

The Friend & Ally system would be similar but not quite the same. Like as an Ally they would still join you in wars. But if they are Friends or Allies with you then they are willing to trade more with you. Or even occasionally offer you a gift of their extra luxury/strategic goods for 30 turns like all time trades seem to be set at now.

This way it feels more natural instead of simply pay 1K gold become an Ally and get a bunch of extra stuff for free.

 

[dexters]

^
above ideas add unnecessary complexity. I like how becoming allies with city states automatically grant you their resources once they've connected it. What could be done to fix the duplication effect is to switch it up a little.
Right now, all City States get dyes and silks as their luxuries. This makes trading difficult as no civs will every trade for either. Allow city stare luxuries to be more varied and tradeable to other civs.

Just give city states more to do. And or allow players to take control of the units they produce, for a gold fee if they are killed (seems like everything in Civ5 costs gold).

City states also need food bonuses of their own for being allied with a larger civ . A vast majority of them cap out at size 8. Very few grow larger than that. And those who do, do so because of terrain and luck.

 

[Estarrioll]

Sorry, PyroMancer, I side with dexters this time. Luxury resources are too precious to waste them for a CS. And the system looks too complex for no need.

And I agree with dexters on other thing - there should be stronger connection between a Civ and a CS. An allied CS should be kinda the part of our Civilization, I guess. They help us, we help them.

Also an idea came up - what do you think about the possibility to transform our own cities into CS? In troubled times we then will be able to get rid of some cities, but to keep them around like CS. Well, something to think about.

 

[PyroMancer]

Sorry, PyroMancer, I side with dexters this time. Luxury resources are too precious to waste them for a CS.

??? The main reason I suggested it is because in EVERY game I've played I have way more luxury resources then I know what to do with. I figured get some use out of them since you only need one of each.

I try to trade them away to AI as much as I can but I'm still often left with several extra of luxury resources. So I figured have something interesting to do with them other then collect dust.

 

[Estarrioll]

??? The main reason I suggested it is because in EVERY game I've played I have way more luxury resources then I know what to do with. I figured get some use out of them since you only need one of each.

I try to trade them away to AI as much as I can but I'm still often left with several extra of luxury resources. So I figured have something interesting to do with them other then collect dust.

Well, I personally have problems with getting more resources and have no problems with trading them. Maybe the thing is that we play on different maps and map sizes, or difficulty levels.

 

[PyroMancer]

Maybe the thing is that we play on different maps and map sizes, or difficulty levels.

I tend to play on Standard Map with King difficulty. Everything else is pretty much default except the Time Victory condition is off cause I want someone to actually win not just let clock run out.

 

[Namaspamus]

Pledging to protect doesn't seem to increase relations with CSs, maybe it should.
Building long-term relations with them could matter too, having been they trusted allied and protector since the dawn of time should matter.

Agree a lot about artisan and commercial city-states (not talking about religious). Didn't digg it out yet but it's possible to loan money from a "friendly" civ: making a mistake in the trade screen I asked Wu Zeitan what she wanted for her 800 gold, and she told me something like 12 g/turn for 90 turn, wich I refused but found great. Financial CSs would be even better.

Also maybe you could ask some CSs to peacefully join your empire after a very long alliance time (as some of your cities could leave you and become CSs).