More Histograph attempts

[superslug]

(I am assuming that examining these stats before the world is visible "in game" is not allowed. Pity.)

That's a good question. It is technically spoiler knowledge, but it's also not something I'm going to worry about. Domination limits are usually known in advance (due to Mapfinder), and since most milk maps are warm/wet/5 billion/pelago, the terrain breakdown is fairly uniform.

The big question of "Pangaea (faster start) vs. Archipelgo (more territory)" is still up in the air in my mind.

It would have to be one hell of a start. The scores in the HOF tables decidedly favor more territory.

 

[a space oddity]

Denniz,

What was your city count and happy citizen count at 1495 AD. My 1500 AD save had 506 cities and 3197 happy citizens. One of the keys to a high milk score is filling the 66% territory domination limit as early as possible with happy citizens working every available tile. At the end there were 3804 happy citizens every turn after cleaning pollution and returning the citizens to work the old polluted tile.

At 1500AD I had 3062 Happy citizens in 465 cities, I'm currently (1595AD) at 3404 in 453. But my tiletype stats aren't so good comparing to the 2797 Grass tiles of Svar... see for yourself:

 

[Bartleby]

You have a big chunk of tundra...

 

[a space oddity]

Yes, some of it near my core too.
In other aspects this map was great, though, lots of native luxes I managed to grab early in the game.
I'm currently in the process of abandoning all those tundra towns and gaining about 30-50 happy faces each turn.

 

[Denniz]

Denniz,

What was your city count and happy citizen count at 1495 AD. My 1500 AD save had 506 cities and 3197 happy citizens. One of the keys to a high milk score is filling the 66% territory domination limit as early as possible with happy citizens working every available tile. At the end there were 3804 happy citizens every turn after cleaning pollution and returning the citizens to work the old polluted tile.

Cities=231, Pop=2987, happy=~2650 with MM. You have over 500 more happy faces than me. The score difference is around 500 happy faces too, imagine that.

I am a little spread out. I have over 680 unworked tiles. Mostly from moving into new grassland areas. Looks like I have been too slow. Your numbers peaked sooner and higher than mine.

I have learned quite of few new things NOT to do, this game.

 

[Denniz]

At 1500AD I had 3062 Happy citizens in 465 cities, I'm currently (1595AD) at 3404 in 453. But my tiletype stats aren't so good comparing to the 2797 Grass tiles of Svar... see for yourself:

With numbers like those you should passing or past me. What was your score in 1495? Mine is 15792.

 

[Denniz]

It would have to be one hell of a start. The scores in the HOF tables decidedly favor more territory.

I like to stake out theories contrary to the conventional wisdom and then prove the conventional wisdom correct. I like to state the obvious, too.

 

[superslug]

I like to stake out theories contrary to the conventional wisdom and then prove the conventional wisdom correct.

Sometimes it's good to challenge the conventional wisdom.

 

[a space oddity]

With numbers like those you should passing or past me. What was your score in 1495? Mine is 15792.

In 1495AD I only had 13940 points, so you're still pretty far ahead.

edit: BTW I'm at 1620AD now and I've managed to finally pass Moonsinger's attempt again the last 4 turns, the per-turn increase is about equal to Svars' game. I'd need to pass that to regain some of the terrain I lost during the first part of the game. I haven't fully irrigated my core yet, since I need those moveable shields to assist the rushing of Markets and Hopitals.

 

[Moonsinger]

edit: BTW I'm at 1620AD now and I've managed to finally pass Moonsinger's attempt again the last 4 turns, the per-turn increase is about equal to Svars' game.

Again!

 

[Denniz]

I have been completing hospitals and joining workers like crazy. I have 236 cites with 4418 pop (3340 happy) as of 1590AD with a score of 18,028. CivAssit II shows 3201 worked and 193 unworked tiles. I assume the diff is coastal.

I am still losing ground but the gap appears to be increasing by fewer points each turn. I wonder if the extra worked tiles from having 300 fewer cities will cancel out the difference in grassland. My gut says I can't catch Svar, but I don't have the math skills to figure out how to project my score.

Too much math. I think I will take a nap.

 

[a space oddity]

Again!

Yes, my score dropped under yours for a while. It's an uneven battle though, since you played it in PTW without the help of the superior specialists.

I needed to get rid of India and I had some WW-ness left. That hurt my per turn increase for a while. Here's a graph:

 

[Denniz]

Well, it is offical. I have messed up a good start.

I have reached 1950 and have maxed out pop. The best I can tell is that I will continue to slide relative to all of the top four positions. I figure ~37K finish if I were to play out the last 100 turns. I don't think it is worth finishing since I know I can do better.

My two main mistakes were going Monarchy for government instead of Republic and spacing my cities out for hospitals. Both allowed me to get more territory early but cost me research and pop growth in the mid-game.

I have had MapFinder running for the last few days looking for a good Arch map with wet/warm/5-Bil. Yesterday, I had about 10 maps above 4400 and 3 of those had 2 cows. (All have 2 food bonus and fresh water.) I will probably play COTM14 and then start over with the best map.

 

[Svar]

Well, it is offical. I have messed up a good start.

My two main mistakes were going Monarchy for government instead of Republic and spacing my cities out for hospitals. Both allowed me to get more territory early but cost me research and pop growth in the mid-game.

In my Emperor game I switched from Monarchy to Demoracy around 1275 AD after the last Civ was subdued. I also space my cities out for hospitals but build about 2.5 times as many temporary cities for population growth and use them to research with scientists to offset the loss of not using Republic. A_Turkish_Guy copied this techique to play his Chieftain game that now sits in the number one position you can do the same thing at this level. Just remember to keep building cities until you reach the limit, only then do you need to start abandoning temporary cities. Once you have hospitals in any permanent city you can add workers to that city and abandon the temporary cities within the city radius.

 

[a space oddity]

The only thing to watch out for is cultural borders. I've had one or two instances where abandoning a temporary city suddenly left 4 tiles empty...

I have to say though I really enjoy the challenge to find the perfect tiles to fill while keeping as close to the dom limit as possible.

 

[superslug]

Well, it is offical. I have messed up a good start.

I disagree. The map was a failure, it was an educational practice.

My two main mistakes were going Monarchy for government instead of Republic and spacing my cities out for hospitals. Both allowed me to get more territory early but cost me research and pop growth in the mid-game.

I think Monarchy is fine for a milk run until your next switch. Actually I prefer it over Republic due to the MP, unit support and less war weariness.

As far as territory versus population, I tend to think you should still take over as much territory as possible first, and then worry about population. You eventually have to take all the territory, so better to do it early via expansion rather than conquest.

 

[Denniz]

The whole city placement and utilizing all the territory controlled is quite clear, now. Temp cities seem to be a better approach.

For governments, I went Monarchy and then Communism.

I think that other than debating going with Republic and sticking with it the whole game, late government pick shouldn't matter that much. It is more of a preference: cash-rush vs. pop-rush. (I got to see some of the downside to pop-rush this time.)

The big question in my mind is: Which government is better early: Monarchy or Republic?

My Monarch milk-run was republic then communism. I found WW to be a major issue. I tried Monarchy this time. I found that with republic, I got to Steam and communism faster than with Monarchy. The benefits of communism were less impactful coming later when the extra production wasn't needed for expansion or conquest.

Are certain pairing more natural for maximum effectiveness: Monarchy-Democracy vs. Republic-Communism?

 

[Bartleby]

I keep telling myself to try Monarchy, because I always suffer appalling war-weariness (I'm a poor warmonger). But Republic is so quick to get to that I always just go there and stay there. And the commerce boost during the good times...

edit: But then in my Emperor milk run, the target I set myself is 37500 and I'm beginning to be skeptical about that, so I can't really advise you.

edit2: However, if you have maxed your pop then you can get a pretty accurate estimate of your 2050 AD score with SirPleb's score calculator or you can bodge the calculation yourself using the data from MapStat.

 

[Denniz]

I disagree. The map was a failure, it was an educational practice.

That it has.

I think Monarchy is fine for a milk run until your next switch. Actually I prefer it over Republic due to the MP, unit support and less war weariness.

That's where I was coming from. I have done two serious milk runs. One each way. I need a tie breaker.

As far as territory versus population, I tend to think you should still take over as much territory as possible first, and then worry about population. You eventually have to take all the territory, so better to do it early via expansion rather than conquest.

I like I did a good job of grabbing the land. Where I fell down was by passively waiting for communism and sanitation when I should have been filling in unworked territorry.

However, if you have maxed your pop then you can get a pretty accurate estimate of your 2050 AD score with SirPleb's score calculator or you can bodge the calculation yourself using the data from MapStat.

Well, I downloaded the calculator:

As you can see, it thinks I would just squeak by Moonsinger for 3rd place.
I based my estimated 5th place, 37,750 score on a .5 point declining trend in my per turn score that I found by looking at the graph data from CRpViewer. More data points, less optimistic outcome. I am not sure which is more accurate.

Good luck with your milk run.

 

[superslug]

That's where I was coming from. I have done two serious milk runs. One each way. I need a tie breaker.

If you plan on milking at levels higher than Monarch, than Monarchy will be your best bet. At Emperor+ you only start with one content citizen, so Monarchy's MP units come in very handy. You'll also need more units to take care of the AI's more units, so the unit support comes in very handy.

Granted, Monarchy offers less tech pace than Republic, but specialist farms can handle that....if the AI doesn't for you.

I am not sure which is more accurate.

Between the two, I'm not sure what to say. As far as SirPleb's score calculator goes, it won't give a fully accurate prediction until your score per turn is constant, although even then it tends to be a little depressed.