More reasons to open Tradition

[redwings1340]

I've been seeing some debate here about whether it is better to open tradition or go straight to liberty when you want to take liberty policies early. The cultural bonuses aside (+900 front loaded culture over the course of a game? Sounds awesome enough), it unlocks 3 very powerful mid to late game social policies that you don't need to get immediately to use.

Aristocracy: +15% production when building wonders, +1 happiness for every 10 citizens in a city
In Immortal and Deity, it becomes impossible to do a huge amount of wonder building, but for lower difficulties, there is a time where you can sometimes get the lead in tech and build wonders to your hearts content. This is an awesome policy when you get that tech lead, so there's no reason to take it immediately.

Legalism (leads to monarchy/landed elite): Proves a free culture building in your first 4 cities
The policy is usually used to expand the borders of your first few cities really quickly, but late game it can have other uses too! Get it after radio and that's free broadcast towers in your first 4 cities! Get it as a free social policy when you win the world fair, and that can be free broadcast towers in your first 4 cities right when you need it most! I can think of worse late game policies.

Oligarchy: Garrisoned units cost no maintenance, cities with a garrison gain +50% ranged combat strength
Did someone far stronger than you just declare war on you? Here's an awesome panic button! There aren't many policies that help you immediately in a war, but this is one of them. After the war is done, it saves you a little bit of money too.

If you don't go tradition first, these 3 policies are basically nonexistent, as none of them are worth 2 policies to get. Tradition is either something you want to open with immediately or never get, as the opener is really only valuable early. If you do open with it though, you get these 3 policy options throughout the entire game, and I think each one of them can have various uses, no matter what style you're playing. Since opening tradition really doesn't cost you much even if you never get these policies, I feel like that it's almost always worth it to do so, even if you don't plan on going through any more tradition anytime soon.

 

[sonicandfffan]

There is no reason not to open tradition early, since if you go straight for collective rule you will open it at around the same turn whether you open tradition or not (since tradition opener gives you +3 culture). It effectively amounts to a free policy early on.

I'd also argue there's a strong case for Oligarchy being crucial early on if you're playing peaceful since it allows you to maintain a decent sized army when money is scarce.

 

[evilcat]

There is no reason not to open tradition early, since if you go straight for collective rule you will open it at around the same turn whether you open tradition or not (since tradition opener gives you +3 culture). It effectively amounts to a free policy early on.

There is still 7T difference in pure CR and with tradicion opener. However if there is no rush for insta land grab, that is worth a try.

 

[Gort]

I reckon the main reason Tradition is amazing is the super-capital you get. Combine that with a rush to the National College and you'll have a huge science base to work with, and science enables everything else in this game.

 

[Cissnei]

If you open piety you will have a free religion. If you find 1 +20 culture ruins you will not fall behind in culture.
And after building monument and putting 2 points in piety you can rush to Aristocracy for wonder

 

[joncnunn]

I would agree that Tradition works best if its your first tree and all your effort goes into it until it's finished. That way you get 4 free Aquaducts before you finish researching the tech.

Liberty & Piety are also trees that when taken are best as the first tree.
(Getting a Great Person before its normally possible to do so in case of Liberty; and in case of Piety you want that free Great Prophet before you've already enhanced your religion.)

Honor would be the tree that if some new patch made it require Classical era to open that no one would notice as it works better as a second tree.

 

[redwings1340]

I agree that going pure tradition is very strong by itself, and worth completing first very often. My point is that no matter what strategy you're going for (I'll exclude piety openings here, as I have not made piety or religion work at all yet in BNW), opening tradition before taking any other policies is awesome because it pays for itself very quickly, and opens up some really good mid to late game policy options should you need them.

Like, open tradition. Then take the entire liberty tree and play standard. Now you have 3 more awesome policies open to you whenever you need to take them.

 

[bonafide11]

I think the OP has a valid point. Opening with tradition is strong itself, but then leaving those other policies for later on in the game and coming back to them is not a bad idea. It's much different than many other ancient social policies where the first tier of them are insignificant if you don't get them early on.

 

[Minor Annoyance]

In my current game as Assyria I went right for Honor and then Piety because I had a faith natural wonder and therefor had reason to go for religion. Later it seemed like I was slow getting more policies, only finishing those two and getting three into Rationalism before ideologies came up. Being so OCD I tend to think if I start a policy I HAVE TO FINISH IT, so it's really that I'm overvaluing the idea of the policy finisher as getting a free policy. Also in this game I didn't specifically decide to go either tall or wide, not having any civilization bonuses that favor either strategy so there was no specific reason to take either. Thinking it through, taking those culture adding openers will pay for themselves over time so there's no reason not to take them.

 

[rodrigoq]

I would agree that Tradition works best if its your first tree and all your effort goes into it until it's finished. That way you get 4 free Aquaducts before you finish researching the tech.

It means you can completely ignore engineering and beeline something else.

 

[RealHuhn]

There is no reason not to open tradition early, since if you go straight for collective rule you will open it at around the same turn whether you open tradition or not (since tradition opener gives you +3 culture). It effectively amounts to a free policy early on.

I'd also argue there's a strong case for Oligarchy being crucial early on if you're playing peaceful since it allows you to maintain a decent sized army when money is scarce.

I can't believe people still say this. It's not wrong but you completely ignore 90% of the negative consequences.

Yes, collective rule is delayed by only 5-10 turns. But the next policy after that is delayed by even more turns. Policy costs rise exponentially.

In fact, you have to look at the last policy you get in the game. The "costs of that policy" minus "3*number of turns played" is the amount of culture you lose by opening with Tradition.
So if you win on turn 300 and your last social policy costs 4000 culture, you effectively lost 4000 - 300*3 = 3100 culture. Just because you opened Tradition.
And in a wide empire, the last policy can cost much much more than 4000 culture.

 

[evilcat]

I can't believe people still say this. It's not wrong but you completely ignore 90% of the negative consequences.

Yes, collective rule is delayed by only 5-10 turns. But the next policy after that is delayed by even more turns. Policy costs rise exponentially.

In fact, you have to look at the last policy you get in the game. The "costs of that policy" minus "3*number of turns played" is the amount of culture you lose by opening with Tradition.
So if you win on turn 300 and your last social policy costs 4000 culture, you effectively lost 4000 - 300*3 = 3100 culture. Just because you opened Tradition.
And in a wide empire, the last policy can cost much much more than 4000 culture.

Just as side not, tradicion opener is not just 3 but also border growth, and the difference in border growth is spotable. Also Aristocracy is quite strong to build all this national wonders not to mention hapiness from population. Not to mention that you can time this free cultural buildings in various ways. Still not sure if Patronage wouldnt better, but not bashing tradicion opener if we have some turns to waste.

 

[RealHuhn]

Just as side not, tradicion opener is not just 3 but also border growth, and the difference in border growth is spotable. Also Aristocracy is quite strong to build all this national wonders not to mention hapiness from population. Not to mention that you can time this free cultural buildings in various ways. Still not sure if Patronage wouldnt better, but not bashing tradicion opener if we have some turns to waste.

I was correcting a guy who said that Tradition opener is ALWAYS worthwile without any opportunity costs.
Sure, when I play a civ like Polynesia, Inca or Hiawatha who really benefit from faster border growth I always start with the Tradition opener because of the increased border growth.

Besides, if you pick Legalism for free broadcast towers, you can add your "2nd to last policy" minus "the amount of culture the BTs generate before you could hardbuild them anyway" to the lost culture as well. Four broadcast towers certainly don't generate 4000+ culture in 10 -15 turns. When you get them by using Legalism, they don't pay for themselves at all.

And if you like broadcast towers, what would you prefer: Tradition opener + Legalism or Aesthetics opener + cheaper culture buildings in all your cities? I think the answer is pretty obvious.
Two policies are two policies and you have to invest the same amount of culture in order to get them.

 

[Anarchist]

It means you can completely ignore engineering and beeline something else.

I didn't realise you got the aqueducts even if you didn't have the tech. I used to ignore it until later because of this. I'll do it earlier now.

 

[sendos]

It means you can completely ignore engineering and beeline something else.

Bad advice if you're going for GW. Otherwise, good advice.

In most cases, I'm starting to see that tradition is somewhat better than liberty. Unless there is a lot of land near you to seize, then liberty is still useful, but you do have to anticipate cases when you might get squished by other expansive civs.

 

[SicklyAlbatross]

A lot of the time I'll hit a culture ruin before I have any idea who my neighbours are, or how many potential city spots are available. So quite often I'll end up opening tradition because it's always a safe choice for my relatively unknown map.

 

[rodrigoq]

Bad advice if you're going for GW. Otherwise, good advice.

In most cases, I'm starting to see that tradition is somewhat better than liberty. Unless there is a lot of land near you to seize, then liberty is still useful, but you do have to anticipate cases when you might get squished by other expansive civs.

I do this mainly when I am fighting for religious domination. If I can beat the AI to theology, and have a very clear 2-4 tech lead on getting there, every theo wonder is mine and they are a huge boost to religious domination/missionary spam. Even it it means i don't tech bronze working till after chivalry.

Expansiv civs are easy to deal with, I welcome them with open arms. I wan't them to settle near me, around me, beside me. Usually around the 0ad marker the AI's all seem to get the super expansion/settler spam feeling, which is great, especially on diety. Their citys grow fast, they build buildings nice and quick, and are easily taken. Hiawatha is probably the most ******** AI for rapid expansion. He seems to just fill void spaces with citys, 30+ tiles or more from his main ciies, and army. It's like free settlers cominng from a foreign land, just to make me cities that can't be defended.

 

[dexters]

I don't really agree.

Legalism works pretty much at any stage you can hit up 4 culture buildings to slingshot your culture game. It's admittedly less powerful than before with the culture buildings redone in BNW, but it's relevant all the way up to Broadcast towers.

Aristocracy is nice to have if you're wonder spamming, but it's situational and better paired with a Marble start. At high difficulties, that 15% is not going to do much. Also, it's essentially half a buff until you get to your 1st size 10 city which won't be felt for a while and even then its only 1 happiness for those 10 pop.

I'm a firm believer in Liberty unless you're going OCC, playing Venice or doing something very specific. Liberty is highly scaleable gives you the option of a 2nd city, faster worker speeds, faster settler builds, reduces culture costs of new cities, gives extra production, gives extra happiness, gives a GA + free GP which if you use to grade a GE means an almost guaranteed ealry wonder, and it even gives a little bit of culture on the side.

Faster worker speeds is really crucial here. Faster development around your core = stronger economy

It's not as specialized as Tradition, it's so flexible I use it on almost all Civs I play on. The reduced culture cost for new cities more than pays for itself.

That said with BNW's reworking of Social policies, there's almost no reason not to get both Liberty and Tradition and have both trees done by the Renaissance staying semi-tall ( under/up to 4 'unpuppeted' core cities ) to take advantage of tradition's bonuses.

 

[Bibor]

Both tradition and liberty are great in their own way. Although one could argue that Tradition lends itself to a safer aggressive early game (faster borders, safer cities, larger capital,
more supported units with olig. and capital gold).