Most illogical rules in Civ4

[Tomek]

I think the absence of Zones of Control (ZOC) is ashame. If an army of the enemy's infantry walk straight past your machine guns, they aren't just going to sit and watch are they? Well they do in Civ !

With the addition of more useful Forts in Beyond the Sword, no ZOC implementation has meant they aren't quite as useful as they could be, if units can walk straight past them without any consequences.

Now, when I mention ZOC, I DO NOT mean the implementation that was present in Civilization II - that was too restrictive to your moves, and I certainly wouldn't want that back!!

yes, ZOC were in Civ1 and Civ2. Mayby they are not crucial but I would be happy to seethe real war frontline in CIV 4. in Civ4 it is rather rare to observe fronline. usually wars look different and looks like march from a city to a city ignoring everything in between and striking in the chosen points with massive amount of units on one tile. Nobody cares about the flanks 'cos ther's no need to...

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

yes, ZOC were in Civ1 and Civ2. Mayby they are not crucial but I would be happy to seethe real war frontline in CIV 4. in Civ4 it is rather rare to observe fronline. usually wars look different and looks like march from a city to a city ignoring everything in between and striking in the chosen points with massive amount of units on one tile. Nobody cares about the flanks 'cos ther's no need to...

I don't recall ZOC in Civ 1 (I was like 11 years old and really just played on the easiest setting and messed around with buildings) and never played Civ 2, but this ZOC idea sounds awesome. I've always wondered why in real life, many battles occurred outside city walls or many times on open fields on the roads to the cities. But in the game, most battles occurred in cities. I would love for those hills/forests defense/attack promotions to hold a lot more weight. They could even add open field promotions for mounted and armored units as they are most effective in this environment.

 

[Diamondeye]

KmadCandy, you rock /agree

 

[Jamesds]

yes, ZOC were in Civ1 and Civ2. Mayby they are not crucial but I would be happy to seethe real war frontline in CIV 4. in Civ4 it is rather rare to observe fronline. usually wars look different and looks like march from a city to a city ignoring everything in between and striking in the chosen points with massive amount of units on one tile. Nobody cares about the flanks 'cos ther's no need to...

I don't recall ZOC in Civ 1 (I was like 11 years old and really just played on the easiest setting and messed around with buildings) and never played Civ 2, but this ZOC idea sounds awesome. I've always wondered why in real life, many battles occurred outside city walls or many times on open fields on the roads to the cities. But in the game, most battles occurred in cities. I would love for those hills/forests defense/attack promotions to hold a lot more weight. They could even add open field promotions for mounted and armored units as they are most effective in this environment.

Yeah, I think this deserves it's own thread: Bring back ZOC!
Make your voice heard for the good old ZOC.

 

[Figaro]

Note - this not for the critic - this is for the upgrade of the game that we all love. I focused on general concepts and fundaments not on figures like unit strenghts and other factors.


*sacrifice people (slavery rush) to build the units - I understand buildings but military units??

*close trade relations without science boosting - I have strong relations with my neighbour, open borders so it is imposible to keep him half tech developed. I believe massmedia is not a secret tech when people from other country may visit my country where there are tv-screens in all hotels and houses! (I believe this is the price of trade and open relations - you sell sth and you earn money but you lose the monopoly for it)

*internet era without global effect - only one country gets the benefits from global internet library - isnt that stupid?

*victory conditions -the only true victory is the dominant victory 'cause the survival is the only factor that measures the civilizations' success, all other victory types should only be a tool for domination or eventually victory conditions in scenarios. Lets be true: space ship is only side effect of domination, not victory term.

*cottage does not carry the population so when you raze it you do not lose population (I hope somebody lives in it or i'm wrong?)

*no immigration effect - no efect between high and low culture or tech developed countries. no effect while capturing the city, but I suppose the people flee from invaders terror...

*no dependence on worlds size and character - I believe that there should be more water units diversity in waterworld or archipelago map and less or no water units in giant pangea or no water map; different land improvement on kind of diuna continents and different in standart world.

*no dependence between population and size of the army

I belive that Civilization is Civilization not chess so I support any ideas that could make the game unpredictible (in positive sense) and free from "old-fashion" and repetable gambits. Please join the discussion, free your ideas and critiques.

1. The assumtion is, I think at least, that you are forcing slaves to forge the armour, slave labour in Tank factories etc. - it's no more crazy than the absence of a mine near the city taking longer to build.

2. Some form of "Tech Leaking" would work, that way, if you wanted, you could be isolationist and not share anything with your neighbours. Try the mod Total Realism.

3. The internet has not benefitted everyone equally. The very fact that 90% or whatever of websites are in English, when fewer than 10% of world population speak it, just goes to prove it. Besides, it's a pretty useless wonder

4. Well, maybe, but what are you suggesting - that we remove the other victory conditions? How would that make the game more fun?

5. I think it's assumed the population of the cottages aren't noted as part of the local city's population. But yes, they should affect the more abstract "population" figure.

6. This is indeed something that should be included in Civ4.

7. Why not just have everything available on all maps? That way you'd always have the maximum possible choice.

8. Not directly there isn't, but populaition does affect army size in that a bigger empire will inevitable have a larger army. Besides, its not as if every country today has a fixed percentage of their population in the army - in some countries it's quite low; in others very high.

Some good points though. Another one I came up with is that, while it is indeed logical that a Drydock would make the building of ships easier, if you think about it, it would be virtually IMPOSSIBLE to make a BattleShip or Aircraft Carrier without some form of ship-building facility. Similarly, small villages do not have the ability to produce Tanks, so how come in Civ4 every city has the same build options? I don't think it would be unrealistic to have certain basic units always recruitable but more advanced ones requiring special facilities. They do this with buildings (e.g. a Factory requires first a Foge, a University needs a Library) so why not with units? It's quite common that universities are built in small towns, so if anything it makes MORE sense to limit unit production than buildings.

 

[blitzkrieg1980]

Well, figaro, I think that the issue for whipping units is that there were actual armies in the ancient and classical eras that were composed mostly of slaves. Ever seen 300?

 

[Figaro]

Yes. Awful film. But you're right, of course.

 

[Ambs-Ace]

Haha, this is a fun thread! Kudos Tomek!

I definitely see your main frustration (arbitrary rules make a game fun, balanced, and understandable, but rob that sense of reality and history that this type of game demands), and I would refer you to your local children's TV show...

Imagination goes a loooooong long way towards my enjoyment of the game.

* I love the feel of hitting the "Oppress The Bastards!" button, and get early images of cruelly driving loincloth-clad dudes to roll gigantic square stones on logs up hills. These blocks sometimes roll DOWNHILL too. In a somewhat less controlled manner. Whoops! Later in the game, I start feeling like the harder I work them in the cities, the more of them run off to live and work in small clandestine communities, living beyond the law in the wild places of my empire (think: Montana ).

The "Buy It Now" button involves Marlon Brando, a smoky room, and an impenetrable accent. ("'La Causa Nostra' can be 'La Causa Vostra,' ifyaknowwhatI'msain.") (Also, hooray Italian conjugations!)

* As for victory, might absolutely makes right. However, I love the "Peace, I'm out!" aspect of space race victory. I've always wanted to wait until it's almost ready to launch, and on the eve of takeoff just launch a good handful of nukes at that one really obnoxious civ (there's one in EVERY game), run to my rocket, and make rude gestures out the window as we fly off. Who cares what they do? You'll never see 'em again.

* And cultural victory makes total sense! OK, imagine all of your favourite bands, your favourite movies, your favourite books, clothes, websites, architecture, cuisine, and that one brand of shoes that fit you just right. OK? Now imagine that all of this stuff comes from one tiny region of the globe. Lets say Switzerland (cheese, chocolate, watches, and corporate corruption; hell, they're almost there already!). Got all that? Now imagine a country that's about to bomb the living snot out of Switzerland. All of the things which influence how you live are about to be reduced to a fine paste. Are you pissed at that country yet? Are you ready to get a gun and go defend rock & roll?? That's what I thought! Get out there, soldier!

Seriously, when the whole world is waiting for your citizens' new albums to drop, the LAST thing that they wanna do is come kill you. You've got 'em by the leisure, and just won't let go.

* As for unit diversity, Upgrades!

So you produce 2 Galleons, and each gets two upgrades. On one you take Flanking and Navigation (extra move and retreat). On the other you take Combat I & II. These are two very different ships in my mind! Your shipwrights have just built one faster schooner, which rides higher in the water, but is shorter and holds fewer cannon, while they made a flagship behemoth out of the other, capable of demolishing any ship it can catch!

This is very realistic for two reasons. First, each major design change (like oars --> sails --> steam) is precipitated by radical technological advancement (Galley --> Caravel), but before you discover The Next Big Thing, regional craftsmen can make smaller changes to SPECIALIZE the design, according to what there is a market for.

Second, the ability to specialize your ships comes with having knowledgeable shipwrights. Think of your Viking Trading Posts as places where carpenters from miles around congregate, look for work, share ideas, and compete with one another. This naturally leads to someone having a really good idea, which is then copied by every other carpenter, and soon every blond man with a hammer can make you a faster boat (Navigation I). A Great General (spawned in a city, because he was called from the front lines to a parade in his honour) can settle down as an adviser, and there is much historical precedence for warriors revolutionizing the equipment of their entire armies (Read Shaka's profile in the 'pedia for a good example).



Well that was longer than expected, and frequently off-topic, but I hope I've shown that the game mechanics -- like the graphics -- can be a bit simple at times, but are really just there to represent some more cumbersome system with a little colourful elegance.

 

[Airefuego]

Speaking of food (Tomek said "If famine is taking place in all cities (although rare), where do armies get their food?") ...

... it would be nice if you could shift food between cities. Like the old food caravans of Civ II.

Probably after reasearching refrigeration (or whatever it is that makes supermarkets available) - you should be able to direct food to another city. It's not as if New York gets all its food from the land immediately around it! It is basically a massive great people / commerce / culture farm with basically every square around it developed into a town, but also importing food from every food-excess part of the country as well as other "Civs."

 

[Ekmek]

*close trade relations without science boosting - I have strong relations with my neighbour, open borders so it is imposible to keep him half tech developed. I believe massmedia is not a secret tech when people from other country may visit my country where there are tv-screens in all hotels and houses! (I believe this is the price of trade and open relations - you sell sth and you earn money but you lose the monopoly for it)

what i like about this idea is that it can make terra maps better. so like in real history when you show up in the new world they aren't waiting with tanks.

maybe a python code could add a 1% science boost for each open border treaty. this would make open borders more desirable as well.

 

[Tomek]

2. Some form of "Tech Leaking" would work, that way, if you wanted, you could be isolationist and not share anything with your neighbours. Try the mod Total Realism.

yes - that's a great mode! I love it. Anyway its is good for a big maps and in huge map in the medieval times one turn lasts 15 miniutes or so on my comp. Save has over 1mb - and that's the disadvantage. So I never played this mode to the very end. multiplayer is also unavailible.

3. The internet has not benefitted everyone equally. The very fact that 90% or whatever of websites are in English, when fewer than 10% of world population speak it, just goes to prove it. Besides, it's a pretty useless wonder

I suppose the elite of each nation that is always the main 'engine' of development knows English so is able to use it. I agree that benefits is not equal, but cant agree that it is useless. Maybe it is useless in the game 'cos it appeares very late, when all the cards are already dealt. Maybe if Civ would go further with estimation of human history in the next milennium it would be more useful wonder. BTW I would love to have some more concrete future techs facilities and units

4. Well, maybe, but what are you suggesting - that we remove the other victory conditions? How would that make the game more fun?

oh! I already posted above that it was not the best idea and my thought went too far

7. Why not just have everything available on all maps? That way you'd always have the maximum possible choice.

yes - thats good idea, anyway I think that Civ units does not apply to alternative worlds or histories and shoud be a bit more diversity there

Some good points though. Another one I came up with is that, while it is indeed logical that a Drydock would make the building of ships easier, if you think about it, it would be virtually IMPOSSIBLE to make a BattleShip or Aircraft Carrier without some form of ship-building facility. Similarly, small villages do not have the ability to produce Tanks, so how come in Civ4 every city has the same build options? I don't think it would be unrealistic to have certain basic units always recruitable but more advanced ones requiring special facilities. They do this with buildings (e.g. a Factory requires first a Foge, a University needs a Library) so why not with units? It's quite common that universities are built in small towns, so if anything it makes MORE sense to limit unit production than buildings.

thats a good point indded Figaro. I think there shoud be some more flexibility in buildings option. It would be required to implement an employment factor to the game and posibility to build just more than one factory, more than one bank in one city. Of course in bigger cities you would be able to provide emploees to them in smaller cities or villages these factories will not have the reason to be built... The question is: maybe this could give to much complexity to the game.

 

[Tomek]

* As for unit diversity, Upgrades!

So you produce 2 Galleons, and each gets two upgrades. On one you take Flanking and Navigation (extra move and retreat). On the other you take Combat I & II. These are two very different ships in my mind! Your shipwrights have just built one faster schooner, which rides higher in the water, but is shorter and holds fewer cannon, while they made a flagship behemoth out of the other, capable of demolishing any ship it can catch!

I like your sense of humour Ambs Ace. thats a good explanation you proposed although the mechanics is a bit misleading, dont you think? upgrades come form experience that your units receive in combat (sometimes form bulidings - better training, better knowledge how to use equipment) . these are two different things anyway...
I think there is good mechanics in alfa centauri when you may design your own units. I propose to have fixed national units like spearmen(Greeks), musketeers(French) and so on produced cheaper than adeqate units created via design.

 

[flyingchicken]

"A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." -Antoine de Saint-Exupery

"Imaaaginaaation." -Spongebob Squarepants

 

[Tomek]

... it would be nice if you could shift food between cities. Like the old food caravans of Civ II.

Probably after reasearching refrigeration

thats' brilliant idea! simple, realistic, helping player to mange his empire. Maybe only it should not be units but only transfer that you set in the city screen

 

[Tomek]

"A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." -Antoine de Saint-Exupery

"Imaaaginaaation." -Spongebob Squarepants

Nothing more nothing less...
Civ is the best

 

[sargasm]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is the way some of the Government civics seem to work.

Hereditary Rule: The monarch's succession by his children makes it so that people are happier when the military is around?

Representation: I understand the happiness bonus, but since when does electing representatives make artists or merchants produce research?

 

[Daily Barrage]

If you wipe out a Civ and they still have units left on the map you should be able to "enslave" those units.

 

[Jamesds]

If you wipe out a Civ and they still have units left on the map you should be able to "enslave" those units.

Yeah, that's a point - what happens to them all? Maybe they could be virtually given a chance to go to another civ and become part of their military. And if you are the strongest and nicest civ (at least to your own people) then they might want to join the winning side .