Most important things about C3C vs. PTW?

I haven't tried to pillage and then see if the Army will heal. Even though the pillage is 'free', it still may count as an action taken and thus make the unit un-healable.

Does anyone know for sure?

just checked - 8/17 hp army, with FULL MP has pillaged road+mine and rested having 'green' status.
next turn it was healed 16/17.
I had then Battlefield Medicine, but i'm not sure if it matters (just for the amount of HP healed).

However if You move army along RR, it will still have 'green' status and all mp, but will not heal.
 
When cities came up, a monetary and trade system developed that wasn't compatible with the Feudal system. The Feudal system mainly arranged the use of land.
When in civ you've gone for Feudalism, you'll see your unit support drop once your towns grow into cities. This is historically correct. :king:

Ah--not quite. The towns/cities produced levies, and they were about as effective as the feudal ones; proportionally, they were probably at least as large. And the wealth the cities produced allowed the hiring of professionals, who tended to be better than anyone. Certainly, by the 1300s mercenaries were doing the brunt of the fighting in Europe; by the 1200s, levies were beating feudal knights (as in the Swiss cantons). So historically, the picture is complicated. Firaxis doesn't seem to have cared for all that, and simply wanted a government distinct from the others. Nothing wrong with that, in game terms.

What they do tend to lead to is an empire with few cities, of course, and by modern terms that would describe the feudal eras (at least in Europe) fairly well. (But you'd want to compare the size of, say, Paris or Florence or Bruges or Hamburg with the average burg to get a better idea of what constitutes a town vs. a city, I would think.)

kk
 
Snarkhunter, I don't think we disagree. The historical picture is indeed complicated.
When it comes to Firaxis' intentions, my source was this 2003 post from a Firaxian: (- err, sorry, I'm hopeless with computer functions, I can't make a link, but this post can be found in the archive if you look for 'C3C - Government breakdown, page 3) here it is in full;
Ed-Firaxis:
'Jaybe is correct about the thought process behind Feudalism. As people began to migrate towards the cities, Feudalism broke down and maintaining a strong army became much more difficult.
As for the uses of Feudalism, it is not meant to be a permanent government and should only be good during the Middle Ages. It is the only government that you gotten from a required tech and is perfect for any country that has fallen behind because of bad start spots.
I'll use my last game as an example. I got a good start city surrounded by desert, jungle, mountain and no water on my side of the mountains. My neighbors were Greek and Zulu. I expanded out to about 10 cities, all of size 2-6 plus a good capital city of 12. Monarchy would have killed me since I could not support enough troops with my city sizes. And with the Zulu breathing down my throat and demanding tribute, so I could not risk Republic. In addition I was lagging behind in techs and I did not want to fall further behind going for a government. So I held out till Middle Ages, went to Feudalism, maxed out my free units and took the Zulus land from them.'

By the way, when Ed-Firaxis says 'As people began to migrate towards the cities, Feudalism broke down and maintaining a strong army became much more difficult', I assume he means within the old Feudal system, not that cities didn't have their own means to raise a decent army.
 
Snarkhunter, I don't think we disagree. The historical picture is indeed complicated.

Ed-Firaxis:
'Jaybe is correct about the thought process behind Feudalism. As people began to migrate towards the cities, Feudalism broke down and maintaining a strong army became much more difficult.'

By the way, when Ed-Firaxis says 'As people began to migrate towards the cities, Feudalism broke down and maintaining a strong army became much more difficult', I assume he means within the old Feudal system, not that cities didn't have their own means to raise a decent army.

Yeah. . . if that's what he means, then I think I have to pretty firmly disagree with him, especially after reading Marc Bloch's work on feudalism. This is Eurocentric, mind you, but Europe as a whole was undergoing a pretty significant population expansion throughout the Middle Ages, and the growth of the towns did not, in general, depopulate the countryside (& make it harder to raise feudal levies). in fact, you can make a pretty good case for Europe reaching max pop in the 1200s, & not reaching that level again until nearly 1600. Since in game terms it's all one big generic unit support pile, the distinction between town/city seems ahistoric at best.

And that doesn't even address how feudalism worked in towns & cities; both tried to escape the control of the demesne early on--and the feudal lords fought the tendency tenaciously. Controlling a town was like a license to coin money, literally.

But like I said, the way Firaxis set it up you get a lot of towns and not many cities, and that's not a bad approximation in modern terms. It's just not really the right reason, is all. Not sure what would be better, because the game doesn't really have a concept of cultural loss: once you know how to build aquaducts, you can always build them. Otherwise, I would say in the MidA, you should lose aquas & rivers should give no growth limit escape; the requirements for expanding pop should double or triple; disease should strike randomly at all towns/cities & kill off citizens. You'd go into the MidA with some cities, but would lose them over time & wouldn't be able to re-create them until some later tech. Then change the feudal unit support. Now cities become precious jewels to be protected from loss at all costs, because you can't recover them for a while if you lose them. But it would add some grit to the game, & I'm sure there would be a lot of unforeseen side effects. And it might not reflect non-European feudalism too well.

I don't know the editor at all. Are there enough controls in it to simulate a Dark Ages type disaster: declining resources, massive invasions, infrastructure decay, etc? That would be an interesting challenge: how low do you have to sink before clawing back up again? You'd remove democracy & republic as governments, if possible.

kk
 
Marc Bloch is an excellent historian, specialized in the Middle Ages. If he is your source, I'm with you all the way. If think I only read a work by him about the Middle Age origins of the modern marriage, and that was quite a while ago...
The editor - you probably didn't expect too much anyway - is limited in its recreation of the Middle Age disasters. You can recreate the Black Death; when the Black Death is circling above a town of yours, you risk losing units in that town. That's about it.
 
I saw a mistake somewhere - Medieval Infantry and Guerrilla were already added to PTW, not C3C. The new units in C3C are:

http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3/units/c3c/

The curragh is a primitive ship that comes with your Coastal cities.

The flak is the first AA (Anti-Air) unit you can build (I still don't understand how they work)

Cats upgrade to Trebuchet with Engineering, which upgrade to Cannons

You have a new Paratrooper unit that replaces the first one. There is now a Modern Paratrooper unit.

TOW Infantry are defender with a Bombard factor (they themselves can't bombard, only when attacked).

The Mobile SAM is the Modern AA unit that can move as well - defend your stack from planes!

And the Cruiser is the first Modern Ship with bombard, I think (yes I know Frigates came first).

Here it was:

new Units:

Feudalism gives medieval infantry, which is a sword upgrade and upgrades to Guerilla
Replaceable Parts gives guerillas, which is a resourceless unit that upgrades from both MDI and Longbows.
 
The flak is the first AA (Anti-Air) unit you can build (I still don't understand how they work)
Basically a Flak unit has a chance of shooting down an enemy aircraft that bombs the tile that the flak is located on. Since the AI seem to have a preference for bombing cities, it makes sense to put a few flak in that city... four seems to be a good number. Each time a bomber attacks the city, the RNG seems to do a roll for each individual flak versus that bomber... so you have a fair chance of taking out some enemy aircraft if you have 3 or 4 flak in the city.

As with Mobile SAMs, Flak can be taken along with an invading stack if you are facing an enemy with a lot of bombers.

The WWII Pacific scenario is a great place to play with Flak. Play as America, and if you can manage to hold on to the Phillipines, Manilla is a great place to place a few Flak unit to whittle away at the Japanese air force.
 
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