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Most overrated World Wonder?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by fallout3dc, Jul 10, 2014.

  1. notyourtypical

    notyourtypical Warlord

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    It's pretty much guaranteed on anything but deity. You may need a forest to chop on immortal, but you want that just to free the queue sooner. I will invest 15 turns at the beginning to get +1 food per 8 in every city. Further, unless you are super quick to education (turn 100), the temple will give you a great engineer around turn 130, as you are unlocking printing press or banking.

    Hanging gardens is situational. Playing science or culture but have a non freshwater capital? You want it because it's the only way to get a garden. Got a river coast start? Skip it and build the colossus, and use the ship to send food to your capital.
     
  2. Vitruvius

    Vitruvius King

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    No freshwater capital? Go liberty already.
     
  3. Vohbo

    Vohbo Warlord

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    If you try to quantify the benefits of the Big Ben in that way, then it's probably going to be overrated yes, but that's not what you should be looking at. First off, this benefit stacks with other cost reductions, which already throws off your math entirely.
    Second: If you get the Big Ben, you can change current production into future gold.
    If you want to buy 12 GW bombers the turn you get Flight, you are going to save yourself 2000 gold, but more important you will have more bombers *now* versus more bombers later.
    Third: Once you start buying one unit per turn, the Big Ben becomes something that generates 150 gpt (virtually). That may not seem like much but it is really the difference between buying a unit every turn and buying one every other turn or so.

    Not going to claim this wonder is crucial, but it's difficult to overrate when you use it in the proper circumstances.
     
  4. Doktor Vic Tim

    Doktor Vic Tim King

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    And if you're going to get the Big Ben, you have opened up Commerce, and will eventually get the policy that gives you a 25% redutcion in buying from all your cities. Although Big Ben does bump it up to 40%, but if you're also going either Order or Autocracy, there are tenets that will cut the gold cost of buying either buildings (Order) or units (Autocracy).

    I wonder how much that 15% really helps from Big Ben. One could say it could help a Freedom player when going for a SV to cut the cost of buying the parts...
     
  5. Vohbo

    Vohbo Warlord

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    Well yes but that only speaks in favor of the Big Ben.

    Let's say a bomber costs 1000 (just for ease, in reality it's I think 1050 or so on standard settings), and I have 10 000 gold to spend.

    The costs would be as following:
    No reduction: 1000
    Big Ben: 850
    Mercantilism: 750
    Mercantilism + Big Ben: 600
    Merc+Mobilization: 500
    Merc+Ben+Mobilization: 400

    So, Big Ben effectively allows me to buy 25% more. (On top of generating extra gpt)
     
  6. tetley

    tetley Head tea leaf

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    Instead of building Big Ben in the first place, you could have had 2 free bombers. And you are going to offset that because you paid 436 gold for one instead of 545? That's a lot of bombers.
     
  7. GoStu

    GoStu King

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    Big Ben is nice for Wide empires with lots of gold to spend. It stacks nicely with Mercantilism, and even more so with Order's Skyscraper tenet. Buildings build FAST. It's nice with Autocracy too to further shave off costs to buy units.

    The other nice thing about Big Ben is it's locked to Commerce, which isn't that popular with the AI. They'd rather throw SPs into Piety, regardless of common sense or good results.

    Yeah, two WHOLE bombers. That's thinking small. Play a game of all-out war, and buy entire armies at a time.
     
  8. Doktor Vic Tim

    Doktor Vic Tim King

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    I think we might have to re evaluate the hammer cost of the big ben. Comparing it to bombers might not be the best thing. By the time Benny is available, Factories are available. And you really do want those factories up ASAP if you have the coal unless you slingshotted into Modern Era using Radio.

    Then there are other buildings you may want to build, such as stock exchanges, windmills, public schools. Big Ben is useful, no doubt, but I think the subject is about how much it is worth sacrificing growth for those hammers when you could've spent hammers on other things.

    I like Big Ben, but I don't build it too often because there are other things I want built in my cities first, such as other infrastructure or a standing army in case it's getting too cmall again.

    EDIT: I'd say that it could be at its most usefulness with Freedom, since that tree doesn't have any cost reduction on buying things. And a 40% gold reduction on SS parts could help things a little bit. Although that can be argued with since if you're going for a Freedom SV, you will be stockpiling a good amount of gold anyway. Who doesn't love having 6 cities and buying all the SS parts the same turn you completed the Apollo project?

    Then again, I only play Emperor at best so my opinion might not hold much water...
     
  9. Chum

    Chum King

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    Big Ben vs a stock exchange? I think that's pretty clear who wins that one. Windmills are kind of bad, honestly. Plus can't be built on hills, which you built your city on if you had a choice.

    Public schools come the tech before, so those should already be basically built, and you often times can't build factories immediately and instead of a 10 turn lag time on getting workers to the coal and getting it improved. So I think there's plenty of time to get a wonder going with those options.
     
  10. Calouste

    Calouste Deity

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    People are missing the point about Big Ben. It allows you to shift production from a city with a lot of hammers, where you build it, to cities with fewer hammers, where you buy things with a discount.

    Also, the calculation above ignores wonder specific bonuses (Marble, Aristocracy, Egypt UA) that lower the effective hammer cost of Big Ben, as well as the gold that Big Ben generates. And you couldn't have had two bombers instead of Big Ben, considering bombers don't become available with Industrialization.
     
  11. tetley

    tetley Head tea leaf

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    It reminds me of when I was evaluating terra cotta. I could really get the TC to put out a killer army, but I had to revolve my entire game around getting it. Even then, I wouldn't call TC overrated, because people don't think it's sliced bread.

    I will give this much: comparing to bombers is better than comparing to land units. Unless you're playing a no-CS game, gold purchasing land units on a wide scale simply shouldn't happen.
     
  12. Lparsons7641

    Lparsons7641 Chieftain

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    I've stopped making the Great Library a must-get.
     
  13. XboxAddict77

    XboxAddict77 Wonder Spammer

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    Mine is the Terracotta army, I just don't use it often at all. And it's hard to use it early game and not kill your economy. You want to get the most use out of it by building a ton of units then getting several copies of the individual types but it kills your gold income. And if you don't have many units it doesn't give you all its potential.
     
  14. jlim201

    jlim201 King

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    Location:
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    45-Angkor Wat
    44-Pentagon
    43-CN Tower
    42-Terracotta Army
    41-Parthenon
    40-Cristo Redentor
    Red Fort
    Taj Mahal
    Statue of Zeus
    Kremlin
    Great Firewall
    Great Wall
    Great Mosque of Djenne
    Himeji Castle
    Great Lighthouse
    Mausoleum of Halicarnassus
    Pyramids
    Brandenburg Gate
    Great Library
    Hagia Sophia
    Sydney Opera House
    Alhambra
    Globe Theater
    Big Ben
    Borobudur
    Prora
    Broadway- Overrated- Realisticlly, you are wasting Musicians at this time for late game where Tourism Bombs are worth so much more.
    Uffizi
    Louvre
    Porcelain Tower
    Forbidden Palace- Underrated. I believe is because this poll was close to release of BNW and players did not fully understand the Congress control value.
    Hanging Gardens
    Temple of Artemis
    Stonehenge
    Notre Dame
    Colossus
    Chichen Itza
    Machu Picchu
    Petra
    5-Hubble Space Telescope
    4-Statue of Liberty- So many things to build still. I dont understand how there is little to build from here on. Spaceship Parts, late game units (nukes), Wonders, even Wealth for money for bribing/buying.
    3-Eiffel Tower- Effective for happiness. Tourism definetely helps with Ideology Pressure, so this is a excellent wonder. Not a "culture only wonder like Globe Theatre and others.
    2-Sistine Chapel- Same as Eiffel. Who dosent want more policies?
    1-Leaning Tower of Pisa
     
  15. CraigMak

    CraigMak The Borg

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    Where did this list come from? this is way way out of whack. I agree with Pisa being first but come on. Great wall and petra should be at the front. It's more like Pisa, Hubble, Great Wall, Petra, Pyramids, Chichen Itza, Machu Pichu. IMO
     
  16. Acken

    Acken Deity

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    GL is overrated I think.
     
  17. Tabarnak

    Tabarnak Cut your lousy hairs!

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    Click the link. The original thread link is situated in the upper right corner.

    Based on a lot of votes and commentaries. I think that situationnal wonders should stay away from the top. Which is mostly the case here.
     
  18. tetley

    tetley Head tea leaf

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    Another wonder that just doesn't compute is tbe Pentagon. 1250 hammers to save 33% gold on upgrades. Assume the same 3:1 gold/hammers ratio--which I justify by saying I would take that 33% gold and use it to purchase something else. You have to save 3750 gold in upgrades to recoup the 1250 hammers, which means you have to spend over 10000 gold in upgrades to save that 33%. It's too late in the game; it's not going to happen. Spend the gold. And if you're lucky, maybe you will capture it from someone else.
     
  19. BBMorti

    BBMorti Warlord

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    Petra might be situational, but with the right situation it will be the most powerful wonder. Imo The wonder I never get is Pentagon.
     
  20. Vitruvius

    Vitruvius King

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    0 hammer if you have a GE. Which you will have plenty by then.
     

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