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Most Pointless/useless things

Discussion in 'Civ3 - General Discussions' started by Buttercup, Jan 20, 2015.

  1. Buttercup

    Buttercup King

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    Hi Theov, unfortunately I don't keep multiple saves of the same games as I don't play HoF and don't mind if a game save gets corrupted (I start new games so frequently), so I just permanently overwrite saves throughout every game. I recently deleted a load of old saves and ones titled "Portuguese 1170 BC" were in fact Byzantine games at 1600AD, lol.

    It is a nice location though isn't it, just lacks hills for production though, or rivers, but the setting was wet, temperate, flat, so that's what I expected. I usually play arid, cold, rocky because that really slows the AI down.

    On the continuing subject of the Heroic Epic, it doesn't really fit in the boundaries of useless/pointless because it has a definite effect which intertwines with many play-styles and win scenarios. The issue about whether it's 'technically' worth it is a slightly different debate and could be attributed to no end of items in the game, such as the Mausoleum of maussollos, which just provides an early free Cathedral.

    But also provides early strong Culture and future gold coins. But it's in-game technical 'worth'? Well, your capital is going to be the happiest of your empire anyway, so it wont effect your luxury slider and if it's built early by another of your towns, it's still going to be likely a core city that wont produce any effect on your luxury slider and maybe only one or two extra workable squares. I normally only build it for the culture or as a pre-build or for the future gold or for a single-city game etc.

    So the Heroic Epic might only have a marginal effect on actual empire-wide stats, but there are other things to consider, such as the Culture, and, like any game, just nudging your RNG in a better direction, even if just by a small margin and, like the Mausoleum, it only gets built if you have so much production that dedicating a city to it is no big issue in the first place. As you can see from my above screeny, in that game I'm not even contemplating war until about 1000AD at the earliest (by which time I might even have railroads and/or factories) so your theory about it being useless in the early years is a very specific scenario as the thing builds real quick in the later years and is almost comparable to one Cavalry or one Tank.

    The list of the pointless/useless is much more about things that you'd never even contemplate or have never even used, no matter the scenario. Where the other options are always more tempting - like with Parachuters, it's not only that the unit is absurdly badly statted and it's specific unique use is incredibly limited and not even land-fight in one turn, but also that the Technology itself is entirely optional and therefore a hindrance to getting to the Modern Age if you waste time getting it, I mean, who in their right mind would prefer Helicopters and Parachutists over Modern Infantry and the Seti Programme by choosing to research Advanced Flight instead of Computers and, once in the Modern Age, who would then back-track to pick up AF before so many goodies in the Modern Age? Now that's a huge cannon of uselessness which makes the nitpicking of the technical worth of a stat increment on a non-Tech required Small Wonder seem like, well, nitpicking, lol.

    You are right though, the technical nitpicking can make for informative discussion, it would all be extremely scenario/version dependent though.
     
  2. NoAnswer

    NoAnswer See You Space Cowboy...

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    I agree 100%. I'm glad I brought it to this thread, if only for all this interesting and informative discussion, but in the end you're right in that it doesn't belong here.

    p.s. the Mausoleum has other uses as well! It's not be underestimated! :D
     
  3. justanick

    justanick Emperor

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    Isn't it funny that i am able to disagree once again? :)

    There might be a short period between cavalry and rifleman and more importantly infantry, in which attack values might exceed defence values by a margin. But at higher levels it might easily happen that AI has rifleman before you get cavalry. In that case your idea collapses. Artillery is needed to fight superior enemies like fighting a single Sid AI or fighting 4 Demigod AIs simultaneously. If you are able to use speed to your advantage, than it is great. But for that AI needs to be weak enough in the first place. Also one needs to consider that as the game advances into more modern ages the speed of conquest increases with it. Marching over roads is faster than marching over unroaded terrain. Knights are faster than swordsmen. Cavalry is faster than Knights. Railroads allow infinite speed. So after all the speed issue is somewhat more complicated. Researching steam for railroads but not industrialisation can be convenient. Go for nationalism instead and use mobilzation to maximize the output of new Cavalry by factor of ~2.5 compared to pre industrial levels. There are so many things to consider and that probably is the beauty of it.
     
  4. NoAnswer

    NoAnswer See You Space Cowboy...

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    It's fine to disagree. Anyway, you're not really disagreeing with me because I said your points are correct relative to that time period. Once things get Railroaded, Artillery kicks into high gear. I'm not sure how that's disagreeing with what I said though haha. I'm talking about the Middle Ages here. I mean seriously unless the AI had multiple Veteran Riflemen in size 7 and above cities, or on hills, you're pretty much good to go with Cavalry even when they pop up (although that shouldn't happen until the war is almost won.) Look, it's pretty unlikely if you play your cards right that AI is gonna have Rifles when your Cavalry are having their heyday. If they do they will be far and in-between. I guess it depends on how you play but the optimal use of Cavalry is a war that doesn't last more than a few turns (disclaimer: this might be different on Huge maps. I have to be honest and say I've never played Huge before). If you play it fast and have it planned, at that point, the AI civ that you're fighting has been reduced to a very few number of cities. If you feel more comfortable using Artillery at that point then that time will have come at that point but not before. Before that speed is more helpful.

    Also you shouldn't be fighting 4 Demigod AIs simultaneously! I remember what you pointed out in the thread I started about my game that it was a bad idea to dow the AI. Well, I didn't dow the AI! I let them do that haha. They kept walking into my land so it was pretty easy to get them to dow by telling them to leave. I was even able to get Rome to hit them from behind but since it was Deity they still had plenty of units to send against me. Fortunately I had enough Swords to deal with it.

    Anyway, back to Cavalry. The main purpose of Cavalry is sort of lost if you have to build them. The point is to upgrade all your Knights/Horsemen/Chariots the second you get the tech.

    Like I said, I completely agree that going up against Infantry, or even sizeable amounts of Riflemen without Artillery is unwise. I just think you're maybe underestimating the power of speed. The goal is to be mobilized before your opponent has fully armed himself with Rifles. But yeah... in the case that can't get that in-between tech time to work and the AI has gone from Muskets to Rifles before your Cavalry are on the move then it's time to consider Artillery. I don't dislike Artillery. I know it's just a game but it hurts me to watch units go up against full HP riflemen and Infantry. I can't stand it! It's too sad. At that point I wait for stacks of Artillery.
     
  5. justanick

    justanick Emperor

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    If you use artillery in the medieval age, than you can have so many armies by the time railroads are available that you no longer need artillery. The point of artillery is to spam out armies. An army of 4 veteran cavs attacking a veteran infantry fortified in a city on hills and thus with 125% defence bonus wins with about 93.8% probability. Infantry costs only 90 shields while the cav army costs a total of 560 shields if built via regular means. A veteran cav attacking a veteran musket at 85% defensive bonus only wins in 37.4% of cases. When it comes to conquests itself artillery is not needed. In a way artillery is only a prelude to war.
     
  6. NoAnswer

    NoAnswer See You Space Cowboy...

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    What do you mean? How do you spam out armies with Artillery specifically?
     
  7. justanick

    justanick Emperor

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    Artillery redlines attackers, so attacking units nearly always win and this maximises promotions including getting MGL. MGL create armies and once you have harvested enough armies the war is advancing into enemy territory.
     
  8. ThinkTank

    ThinkTank RL Addict

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    Very large continent maps. You want to sail over to the other continent, to open trades, but sailing around it to meet everyone takes ages. Then a couple of explorers are useful and speed up getting the contacts.

    For disbanding and rushing in another city. Buy an army every turn at about 1500 g, if some shields in the box, double that if no shields in the box. You could use workers. Other than that later in the game normally explorers are the cheapest (shield wise) for the disbanding purpose ...
     
  9. Lanzelot

    Lanzelot Moderator Moderator

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    One point to take into account: "probability" works only with big numbers. So if you only have a couple dozen elite victories, it could well be that you don't notice a difference between having the Heroic Epic and not having it. (You could get zero MGLs in both cases... :D In fact, in one of my games I even had about a hundred elite victories without a single MGL. The probability for that is very low, but it does happen once in a while...)

    But once you get into the "big number range" (several hundred), the probability will eventually work out, and then the HE will make a big difference. And when I talk about "leader farming", I mean of course "big numbers".

    And in some games you may actually have "good luck" instead of bad luck, and then the HE may make a difference already when having only a few dozen elite victories per game.
    In my experience, the rule of thumb is: the higher the difficulty level, the more likely HE will pay off, even for fast domination victories. (Of course on lower difficulty levels you will win faster, if you build 7 early horsemen instead of the HE...)
     
  10. justanick

    justanick Emperor

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    Buying the worker for 80 gold and then switching to army works aswell, so double the money is a bit exaggerated. But usually disbanding is better than buying for money. Instead of buying 375 shields for 1500 gold you can disband units worth 1500 shields to maximize the amount of your armies. Given that one cannot have more than one army for every 4 towns this army rushing soon reaches its limit anyway. When the city with the military academy has railroads, factories, coal plant and possibly the great iron work soon more armies would be built than one have simultaneously, so one would need to disband armies to build new ones. :crazyeye:

    In the late game explorers are good for disbanding for rounding issues.
     
  11. Theov

    Theov Deity

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    Yeah, no. Probability also works the first time you roll the dice.
    I always build the Heroic epic, because raises the probability of armies.
    And since armies are expensive and highly effective, it's worth the shields.

    I don't see why it's discussed as 'useless' here.
     
  12. tjs282

    tjs282 Socially distancing since 1975

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    On topic, pretty much all the late-Modern techs/ units/ Wonders can also be counted amongst the things I rarely if ever research/ use/ build. Although admittedly this may well be the result of playing at too easy a difficulty level (mainly Monarch).

    With all standard SP-VCs enabled, I don't usually feel any compelling need to research/ build anything beyond the Spaceship-techs -- after all, if I can get off the planet first, why bother researching Stealth, Genetics and IntDef (and Robotics in Vanilla)?

    I did build SDIs in one Vanilla game, as the Romans (Monarch, Standard, Continents), but that wasn't part of my original plan...
    Spoiler :
    My Continent had spawned 6 of the 8 Civs (Romans, Russians, Aztecs, Greeks, Chinese, Zulus), so I was hoping that it (and its few small offshore islands) would be enough for the 66% land Domination-limit. This was before I'd installed CAII, so I didn't find out that it wasn't (by only 2-3%) until I'd finally finished mopping up the Greeks, at the beginning of the Modern Age.

    Since all my warfare up until that point had been land-based, I hadn't built many boats (and no capital ships, just Destroyers for shore-patrols). Those few Transports I'd built for taking the last Greek islands weren't sufficient for carrying trans-oceanic invasion forces, and my coastal core cities were at least 10-15T from the neighbours. (And I was running a Republic, with my FP and Palace (re)built in the north-south midline of the Continent, leaving all my outlying coastal cities -- including Rome -- too corrupt for building any Industrial/Modern units from scratch).

    I had a substantial tech-lead, so I began a fairly lackadaisical push for Space instead, but also grabbed most of the Modern techs and Wonders (except Stealth, I think) just because I could, before starting on the Ship-parts. In the meantime, the Iroquois (who had the 2nd biggest/ smallest continent to themselves, and who I had been trading fairly amicably with) also became a nuclear power, and started building their own Ship.

    I wasn't worried, though, because I was still ahead of them on techs/parts. But then, 1T after I'd signed a hugely imbalanced Lux-import/ export deal (in their favour), they invaded my hard-won lands -- even though the Americans (on the smallest, coldest Continent) were a much closer/ easier target. Not surprisingly, their Tanks + Cavs + Infs, as well as the Transports + Destroyers that had delivered them, got demolished by my railroaded Artillery, Tank-Armies, Destroyers, and ModernArmor. And then, in what can only be described as a fit of pique, Hiawatha nuked my coastal Alu + U-235 tiles (my NukeSubs Tac-nuked all his U-235 in retaliation).

    So I converted a lot of ICBM/ Ship-part-builds to SDIs to protect my core-cities -- but while it was then satisfying to see multiple 'Our SDI destroyed an Iroquois ICBM' messages, the SDIs were really only needed because I'd left Hiawatha to his own devices for too long. If I'd gone straight for Space, I could have launched my Ship long before he launched his nukes.
    Sooo... Do any habitual Deity players find that they regularly need to use any of these techs/ units/ improvements?
     
  13. NoAnswer

    NoAnswer See You Space Cowboy...

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    It can be fun sometimes if that's what you're playing for. I guess it all depends. I personally find aerial bombardment kinda fun in this game, and the increased range of stealth bombers is pretty neat.

    In the majority of cases those are all of course superfluous techs. Ideally you'll have set yourself up to have your handful of high-production cities, pre-building if possible, in order to finish all spaceship parts ASAP. Deviating into non SS techs is counterproductive just like you said.

    Also, in the case that you for some reason had to stop the AI from building parts before you then there's better ways of doing that and they don't involve those techs anyway.

    Remember that Longevity and Cure for Cancer give 3 culture. For 20K cultural victory these are useful. I can even see how in some mathematical situations the 1 culture from Strategic Missile Defense could possibly get you hitting 20k 1 turn earlier. It's rare at such high culture that the 1per turn will make the difference, but that case could arise!

    I can also assume that the Milka people can find some use for Genetics, but you'd have to compare to see how 1 content face can justify all that money going into science instead of the luxury slider for the duration of the research of that tech.
     

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