Movin' on up

[PimpyMicPimp]

Now that I can utterly dominate on Noble, it's time to move on up to Prince. Woots! Before I start my first Prince game, I just wanted to ask the Civperts what things I can expect and look out for on that level. Do I need to do anything specific (e.g. focus on diplomacy more, etc)? I know the best way to figure out what I might be lacking is to just dive in, but I want a few tips before doing so and I still have my last Noble game to finish (it's won, I just need to clean up a few more cities and world domination is mine!).

 

[Andvare]

Yes. Do focus a bit more on diplomacy. Tech trading will actually start to mean something, as the AI now can follow you for a longer while.
At noble, diplomacy is only an excuse not to go to war. Higher up, diplomacy becomes more and more crucial.

 

[PimpyMicPimp]

Ya, I've can totally destroy the AI techwise on Noble now. I think I will try to have at least one friend in my games, currently if I don't need friends, I don't really work at them (e.g. keeping Monty happy so I can Space Race in peace, like my last game).

 

[Morgrad]

First and formost, it won't be too unusual for the AI to have an occasional tech parity or lead with you.

It's still pretty easy to get a military-tech advantage and stomp 'em, but they catch up to the counter-units faster.

If you win hands-down easy on Noble, Prince isn't that big a jump. You'll pick it up quick.

Jumping from Prince to Monarch is another story, imho.

 

[PimpyMicPimp]

Would you say Noble to Prince is less than Warlord to Noble? I had a hell of a time with that leap,

 

[KMadCandy]

i know you asked the civperts and you know that i'm not answering as one. but i can give you my opinion as someone else who did go from warlord to noble; a lot of people on the boards didn't, they started out at noble.

i found noble to prince easier than warlord to noble. for me, even monarch to emperor was a little easier than warlord to noble, no kidding! partly because i had played a lot more by then, partly because i knew not to worry about watching the scoreboard, but i swear it's not because i wasn't a permanoob by the time i tried. it's because the AI behavior changes between warlord/noble in way that's hard for me to explain, but it's there. from my perspective, it wasn't just that "at noble the human has no advantages but below noble it does". it's probably an indirect result of the discounts on maintenance etc, but it's not the tech rate or production. what felt different on noble than on warlord was that they settled land super-fast. OMG all of a sudden they were settling spots i thought i still had a bunch of time to get to, greedy dorks! getting used to that, and the tech difference / production difference that you see on all level jumps, was hard for me. now that you've played noble, you're used to them settling above the "we're reallllllllly slow, we're warlord and below" pace. i honestly didn't know how drastically that affected the game until i made that warlord ->noble jump, so if that was part of why that jump was hard for you, then this one won't be as bad imo.

they do spread out faster on prince than on noble, but not nearly as big as the difference is between noble and warlord. the only other level where the change in landgrab is that dramatic is immortal to deity, and there it's of course because the sploiters start out with 2 settlers. note that i did my warlord -> noble jump on vanilla. i don't know how much it's changed in warlords/BtS if any. i sometimes play settler/chieftain/warlords games in warlords/BtS, it's wicked fun, and they still expand hella slow. i can't remember their expansion rate the last noble game i played to compare the rate to.

for me, noble to prince just wasn't as big of an adjustment. i mean it was hard at first to get used to, you still have to get used to the tech / production bonuses they get, so i had to re-think things and learn new tactics, but it wasn't harder than the warlords/noble jump. mileages vary of course, and we all know i'm a total freak anyway so the whole theory could apply only to me *giggle*. i definitely 100% think diplomacy gets more important the higher you go on levels, but i think you knew that already. it saves my life about 80 times each game so i'm biased . when picking your friend(s), watch who their enemies are, because things can get ugly when they demand you cancel trades, blah blah. it's generally a bad idea to have two best friends who hate each other. kinda like real life that way.

do not pay attention to your score relative to the AIs, ever. while you're already paying zero attention, pay less attention the higher the difficulty. i know it's not possible to more than ignore it, but you get what i mean i hope. if you're in the middle or the bottom of the scoreboard, just pretend you're not on it, don't let it bother you. i'm serious, it really does not matter. it's based on stupid arbitrary stuff; the things that matter as far as winning the game aren't measured directly as part of the score, and can change drastically overnight. you can win from last place because you're smarter than them -- even your very first time on prince you're smarter than the AI, trust me! so i look at the scoreboard as a way to compare them to each other maybe, but i pretend i'm not on it.

 

[PimpyMicPimp]

As always, your insight is just awesome, Kmad Thanky.I'm tempted to just drop my current game and start up on Prince, but I like to finish what I start It's not sounding as scary and frustrating as Warlord to Noble was. It took me ages to get it down (which I finally managed just a bit before BTS came out). I think it will probably point out some of my weaknesses (probably sloppy city managment mid-late game) but I'm really just excited to see how it goes. Steamrolling is fun, but an actual challenge is so much better.

Off topic, holy crap, it's the 23rd!!! Time has just flown by!

 

[KMadCandy]

i don't know how awesome that insight really is, it's just relatively few people here had a tough time going from warlord to noble, so they can't compare it. it's not because the jump is simple as pie, i think it's because a lot of people never tried to make that jump at all! so i told you my ramble in case yours was hard partly for the same reasons. maybe yours was entirely different, and it's possible they're gonna kick your candybutt on noble four dozen times. but i seriously doubt it *giggle*. if i can do it, you can do it better !

Steamrolling is fun, but an actual challenge is so much better.

time and a place for everything whatever suits my mood. right now i'm doing that deity always war OCC (but altered of course); some days i really do find my tanks vs. their longbows a hoot and a hollar. go figure.

Off topic, holy crap, it's the 23rd!!! Time has just flown by!

i don't know how old you are, likely much younger than i am. the first time i told my mother "i can't believe how fast this year went by", she said "oh no! now you're in for it. the first time you notice it never slows down." she was right. excellent holiday season so far here, 9 Hello Kitty presents and that's just what i opened early! no privateers tho, hmmz.

 

[DarkFyre99]

Fellow noble->prince transitioner here.

I think the biggest thing that's holding me back is tech trading. I just finished my third game on prince with tech trading off, and as expected I dominated each and every time. On noble, I dominated in techs by the time I reached the middle ages...

Tech trading means mastering diplomacy...
Tech trading means knowing what techs the AI prioritises, and which ones they delay...
Tech trading means learning to take tech trades skewed in the favor of the AI...

You're human, so you've got the advantage in city specialization and war. But the AI are masters of the tech trade, it seems to me.

Somehow, I don't see me having a level 19 privateer and four great generals without declaring war once in my next regular game. Not to mention three vassals who wanted me to protect them from nasty Shaka.

 

[KMadCandy]

DarkFyre99 are you saying that it's easier for you on the higher levels if you turn tech trading off? it slows the AIs down more than it slows you down?

i've never tried it, not even no tech brokering. i have a lot more confidence in my tech trading ability than i do in my warmongering. of course i do still make bad choices at times, but at least i don't sit there and prepare for 800 turns before i finally make a trade the way i do before i declare war .

 

[The Rook]

Fellow noble->prince transitioner here.

I think the biggest thing that's holding me back is tech trading. I just finished my third game on prince with tech trading off, and as expected I dominated each and every time. On noble, I dominated in techs by the time I reached the middle ages...

Tech trading means mastering diplomacy...
Tech trading means knowing what techs the AI prioritises, and which ones they delay...
Tech trading means learning to take tech trades skewed in the favor of the AI...

You're human, so you've got the advantage in city specialization and war. But the AI are masters of the tech trade, it seems to me.

From memory, Prince is the first level where the AI will refuse to trade techs with a human, unless they come out with a better deal. My hunch (I might be wrong) is some Noble players move up to Prince, and when they find that the AI won't accept a "reasonable" deal, they choose not to trade at all. Meanwhile the AIs quite happily trade amongst themselves at parity. On the bright side, whilst you might be ripped off in each individual deal, you can easily come out the winner over a series of negotiations. Simply beeline to a nice tech that none of the AIs have, then trade it aggressively. You will easily make more beakers than your original tech was worth, and if your tech becomes common knowledge the AI won't be able to trade it too.

EDIT: Another useful thing I learned is to frequently ask "what will you give me for this?", or "what would make this deal work?". Sometimes you might find that they will flat out refuse to trade techs with you, because your offer is 10 gold short . Other times they will throw in extra goodies for your benefit, if they perceive that the deal is too good for them.

 

[Molybdeus]

partly because i had played a lot more by then, partly because i knew not to worry about watching the scoreboard

This is pretty critical, I think. On Prince and above, the AI will often have a lead on you in some area or another. Willem van Oranje gets Astronomy very fast, Elizabeth will often grab Liberalism, etc. When that happens, it's easy to panic and think you are in over your head. But all such problems have solutions.

Elizabeth's tech mongering can be contained by isolating her religiously and getting other people to go to war with her, thus pillaging her cottages. Willem can grab a few colonies with his galleons, but these are unlikely to really be much of a threat since he probably isn't going to get a domination victory.

You should also be on the lookout for civs that have overextended. Many are willing to expand until their research rate hits 30%. At that point you can get a couple of key military techs -like Construction- and take over a few of the cities they have generously grown for you.

 

[Kietharr]

I was a perma noble nub once, but I've moved up to doing monarch for my standard play level, some advice:

1. Siege weapons and medics are MUCH more important in your military, no going 2 full ages ahead of the AI and destroying their longbows with cavalry unless the AI is isolated and you are not. The AI also knows how to counter stacks a bit better (not much mind you) so it's a good idea to have medics to heal your units, a medic 3 chariot is ideal as it will never be picked to defend. I always bring 4 or 5 bombard upgraded siege units and at least 2 suicide collateral siege units in case I come up against a very big stack. I constantly keep supply lines open to the front to replace my suicide siege equipment. For example, I lost only 3 grenadiers in my last war of the game against Charlemagne but I lost about 6 suicide cannons. Your infantry's lives are far more important than a replaceable siege unit, especially later on when you've got CR3 gunpowder units that simply are not replaceable. By expending siege weapons, you extend the lifespans of your troops immensely. I managed to get a lv9 grenadier before I won by domination, he was upgraded from an Axeman that I used in my first war.

2. Keep at least one powerful AI happy with you at a time. Getting dogpiled sucks, not having a reliable tech trading partner sucks. There's no point in allying with someone stuck with 3 cities on a peninsula though, only bother with diplomacy when it comes to real world players. The AI is still quite worthless when it comes to coming back from a bad start and when making aggressive, city capturing war.

3. Antisocial leaders: Kill them or buddy up with them. If Montezuma is next door and founds Buddhism, convert. Every leader has their own idiosyncrasies, learn them. Shaka deserves a special mention, if you let him survive and he didn't get a horrible start, he'll kill and/or vassal most of his neighbors before the modern era.

 

[DarkFyre99]

DarkFyre99 are you saying that it's easier for you on the higher levels if you turn tech trading off? it slows the AIs down more than it slows you down?

i've never tried it, not even no tech brokering. i have a lot more confidence in my tech trading ability than i do in my warmongering. of course i do still make bad choices at times, but at least i don't sit there and prepare for 800 turns before i finally make a trade the way i do before i declare war .

Yes, I found the level I was playing a lot easier with tech trades turned off. It slowed down the AIs a lot more than it did me. The three games at prince with tech trading off felt easier than Noble. I mean, the last game I had a Warlord Privateer out hunting frigates until 1940's (when I won a religious victory with my spaceship half built.) I hadn't dominated a game like that since my second game of Vanilla, after figuring out the differences between CIV and Civ3 but still played Settler.

I'd been struggling with prince up to that point. Yeah, I could win, but only with a good starting location. Without a good starting location, I'd find myself surrounded by technologically superior neighbors looking at my backwards nation with covetous eyes.

I am really good at city specialization and city placement, IMNSHO of course. I do a good job with civics, and knowing what type of economy would be best given the surrounding terrain. I can manage Great People well, including teasing out the type I need. My war strategy seems solid, and I'm confident at leveraging corporations and utilizing espionage. My diplomacy isn't fantastic, but I don't suck either.

I'd come to the realization that I'm a very bad tech trader. The current game I'm playing, I went three turns before realizing I should shop around for what I can get the tech I'd just researched. Keep in mind, this is me being very conscious of tech trading, and my game is doing a lot better, despite a sub-optimal start, with few military or happy resources. On Noble, I'd gotten so used to being the tech leader, I could go entire sessions without thinking of trading techs.

The only other weakness I have is a bit of a Wonder addiction. I tend to lag in power in the early game, and that sometimes comes back to haunt me.

 

[oyzar]

Prince and down should be easier with tech trading off...

 

[Iranon]

Everything you can do on Noble, you can do on Prince... you may need to play a little more tighter but you aren't raildoaded into any play style (you can still shoot for all wonders, all religions but Buddhism etc).

Prince from my experience rewards attention to details and setting short-term goals - how much expansion can your economy tolerate, which techs you should prioritise, whether to befriend or take down a rival civilization, when continuing a war becomes too costly for the potential rewards.

From my experience, it will usually be pretty easy to run away from the AI in the midgame unless you made a costly (and often careless) mistake. It is, however, more important to pay attention to how you want to win - 'I'll just grow until winning is inevitable' will usually work but you can randomly lose from the top position if you neglected your diplomacy, if war has become too costly and someone like Willem goes for a culture win (doubly annoying when your capital has more culture than his empire together, but you neglected to build up a 2nd and 3rd city) or something else along those lines.

So in short, my main lesson from Prince was 'Pay attention to details'.

Incidentally, on Monarch it was 'streamline your strategy: Don't do anything you don't have to', and on Emperor it was 'Realize just how much the AI sucks'. I still play Prince quite often as it's a different flavour, in addition to being easier.

 

[Gliese 581]

About the score difference: what you should watch is the demographics screen, particularly the GNP and Production, but also land and population. The other figures are less important, soldiers indicate power and is better viewed on the graph as such. If you're in the middle gnp and production-wise early on you're doing well. If you're isolated and in the middle, you're doing phenomenal.

 

[Fjortisbarn]

I play on Prince, and I seem to forget to focus enough on military sometimes. I think the AI is more agressive on Prince, if you are really low in power, you will be attacked.

And.. when that happens, sometimes I have archers to defend against knights. Not a good idea...

 

[The Rook]

I play on Prince, and I seem to forget to focus enough on military sometimes. I think the AI is more agressive on Prince, if you are really low in power, you will be attacked.

And.. when that happens, sometimes I have archers to defend against knights. Not a good idea...

I think the AI's attitude to you is the same on every level from Noble and above (-1 attitude to human). But as their production/research bonuses kick in, they become more powerful in relation to you, which affects their behaviour.

 

[PimpyMicPimp]

Thanks for all the comments, guys.

One more question, what bonuses does the AI get on Prince? I don't think it's anything major, is it? Isn't it something along the lines of a little less matienance and a little boost to research?