Moving Horsemen to Classical Era

[Moi Magnus]

Or we can remove chariot archer from the game and leave everything as it stands after years of play testing ....

I dont understand why we should make many changes for one unit in the unitclass

Though the initial question was mostly "are horsemen OP for ancient era".

(Which some people claim, see for example https://www.reddit.com/r/civvoxpopuli/comments/9hshc6/is_there_a_way_to_disable_horses/ where the poster claim that rushing miltiary science and then chivalry is too efficient against the AI even at deity)

The chariot archer is just something I added as an issue in the post, because if bugs me that one of the most important militaristic technological advancement of human history is relegated as a useless unit. (But I guess I just don't like the fact that civ does not represent the Bronze Age in a relevant way.)

 

[CrabHelmet]

As was already stated by others here, horses were certainly used for battle prior to the classical era, even in Europe, just not as effectively as later on (ex.: Battle of Tollense valley) and not as often, either, due to them requiring more resources on the part of the owner and therefore usually being reserved for the higher status warrior class.

There is no conclusive way of telling what the horses at Tollense were being used for. One popular theory is that it was a raid on a caravans. Certainly, the Horseman unit in VP is clearly based on lancers, not horeseriders with bows or throwing spears. Lancers do seem to have been a much later innovation. The Greeks talked obviously of the Iranian horses capable of bearing the weight of a full charge, and it would explain why chariots even predominates at all if heavier cavalry required a more extended period of domestication.

What could be done, and this might be controversial, is:
- make Chariots a melee unit which promotes to Horsemen
- swap Horsemen with Skirmishers in the tech tree
- adjust stats appropriately

The Chariots which retained the greatest use for the longest period were the heavy chariots such as those used by the Celts. Light cavalry replaced chariot archers long before heavy cavalry replaced heavy chariots.

 

[CrazyG]

I think @Gazebo might have a fit if we proposed a unit with base 5 movement...

I'm going to have a fit if they are changed to a 4 move mounted unit with 2 range.

Really I think the easiest things to change are just the CS values a little bit. I'd support horses to 14. I have to point out that even with horses at 14 comparing them to swords, they are often still the better unit. Its mobility vs power, mobility is often the right answer. This is comparing to swords, which come much later in the tech tree and also take a strategic resource.

Chariots have two options. Drop the rough terrain ending movement and its immediately a useable unit. We could try increasing the stats instead, but they need to be really high, its really hard to find opportunities to take safe shots with a chariot archer. Egypt's are great because that 5th movement point is used very frequently, with only 4 movement in order to stay safe chariots have to skip attacking too often.

 

[CrabHelmet]

I really don't like making Chariots usable in any terrain. May as well not call them Chariots at that point, it's completely at odds with the essence of chariothood.

 

[civplayer33]

There is no conclusive way of telling what the horses at Tollense were being used for. One popular theory is that it was a raid on a caravans. Certainly, the Horseman unit in VP is clearly based on lancers, not horeseriders with bows or throwing spears. Lancers do seem to have been a much later innovation. The Greeks talked obviously of the Iranian horses capable of bearing the weight of a full charge, and it would explain why chariots even predominates at all if heavier cavalry required a more extended period of domestication.

There are signs (bone lacerations) of warriors in that battle being attacked from an angle that makes more sense if they were on horseback. Thousands of warriors took part in that battle; furthermore, genetic analysis has revealed that they came from all over Europe. It seems ridiculous to me to suggest that this was a simple raid on a caravan. A large scale, organized and planned battle clearly took place there.
Lancers came later, yes, and there is a Lancer unit in civ, is there not? It comes in a later era. The icon of the horseman in civ also doesn't look like a real lancer; he holds a spear that isn't much larger than a throwing spear, no spurs are visible and apart from the metal, which looks a bit more like iron than bronze, nothing there is completely incompatible with the Bronze Age.
Finally, horses have been domesticated for more than 2000 years before that Bronze Age battle so I think it's not at all impossible to breed them to a fight worthy stock in that time frame.

Anyway, I'd be in favor of:

• increasing Horseman production cost by 10 or 15
  
• increase Chariot Archer strength slightly (such that it is hard to one-shot it)
• possibly reduce the rough terrain penalty

 

[CrabHelmet]

I mean lancer in the generic sense of: a mounted fighter with a spear or lance that is not thrown and is not meant to be discarded easily. If you want to include javelin throwers and horse archers, then the Horseman would logically be a ranged unit (and one surprisingly similar to how Chariots currently work), which it is not.

 

[Stalker0]

Or we can remove chariot archer from the game and leave everything as it stands after years of play testing ....

For standard speed play I would completely agree, we apparently aren't using them now. We remove it, and no one cares.

However, Epic and Marathon players maybe using them (people need to remember those players exist!)....so for them I would keep it in.

 

[Stalker0]

Personally even if chariots were a bit stronger its just a bad tech path to really focus on them. Horseman just come at the right time when I can get my horses get my production in order and I've built the initial infrastructure I need to build. Making them stronger doesn't change that. Making horseman weaker doesn't change that.

So let me break it down. There are two problems people are considering. They are not really related, and mixing the two is an issue.

1) Chariots are not built (pretty definitive evidence on standard this is true)
a) They aren't built because they are too weak
b) They aren't built because the tech path is not optimal for it.

2) Horseman are too strong (still highly debatable)

Solving one does not solve the other, they need separate solutions. So looking at problem 1, what is the real issue here (a or b). If its a, give them a buff. If its b...I think we need to accept that this unit will be for epic and marathon players and leave this problem alone.

If number 2 is a problem, simplest solution is a small production increase or a drop in CS to 14. I would not support a big nerf to their city attacks, at that point in the game I only have time for so many units, mixed arm forces just aren't in the cards at that point yet.

 

[tu_79]

Personally even if chariots were a bit stronger its just a bad tech path to really focus on them. Horseman just come at the right time when I can get my horses get my production in order and I've built the initial infrastructure I need to build. Making them stronger doesn't change that. Making horseman weaker doesn't change that.

So let me break it down. There are two problems people are considering. They are not really related, and mixing the two is an issue.

1) Chariots are not built (pretty definitive evidence on standard this is true)
a) They aren't built because they are too weak
b) They aren't built because the tech path is not optimal for it.

2) Horseman are too strong (still highly debatable)

Solving one does not solve the other, they need separate solutions. So looking at problem 1, what is the real issue here (a or b). If its a, give them a buff. If its b...I think we need to accept that this unit will be for epic and marathon players and leave this problem alone.

If number 2 is a problem, simplest solution is a small production increase or a drop in CS to 14. I would not support a big nerf to their city attacks, at that point in the game I only have time for so many units, mixed arm forces just aren't in the cards at that point yet.

Moving horsemen to classical solves both.
It makes chariots the only fast unit in a long time (if not for their bad movement on harsh), and it gives plenty of time to produce spearsmen and connect horses for ownself.

Of all the proposals presented, moving horsemen to classical seems to fit all the bucks. But catapults need to be moved too, or that tech will be overloaded of units.

 

[chicorbeef]

Yeah, I was just trying to offer something for the swap. Otherwise, Military Theory is a very empty tech.

Did you fully read my post? I proposed moving the Arena to where Military Theory currently is.

Anyway, I think this thread has derailed quite a bit. What I was more interested rather than the Chariot is simply moving the Horseman back. I gave my justification for why I think Horsemen are just the best unit bar none early on, and I really think pushing them back is the better solution than nerfing them.

We can talk about buffing the Chariot in a different thread. I mentioned that point because I remember people saying that by the time you have Horses connected it's better to use Horsemen. If Chariots are too weak even with Horsemen moved to Classical, then the problem is in the Chariot, not the Horseman, so let's discuss that in the Going for Gold thread.

But catapults need to be moved too, or that tech will be overloaded of units.

I proposed flipping Military Theory/Masonry. So the Horseman/War Elephant/Terracotta/faster road movement would be where Masonry currently is, and the Barracks/Arena/ToA would be where Military Theory currently is.

 

[Phalanx BR]

An option would be moving the Horseman to a later tech and adding a melee chariot to the Ancient Era (with terrain penalties). This way, there would still be a mobile melee unit in the Ancient Era, but not on the current level of versatility present on the Horseman.

 

[Gothic_Empire]

The consensus on the VP subreddit seems to be that horsemen rushes are so overpowering that no other strategies matter. I suspect we have more blowhards over there, though.

 

[Questdog]

For standard speed play I would completely agree, we apparently aren't using them now. We remove it, and no one cares.

However, Epic and Marathon players maybe using them (people need to remember those players exist!)....so for them I would keep it in.

I play Marathon and I cannot remember the last time I built a chariot archer. I remember I got one from a city state.... I don't build a lot of horses either, though. Early on, I am playing defense and archers are the best for that with a few melee units to buffer them from the opponents' horses.

 

[civplayer33]

I agree that there seem to be different issues at play here, though I wouldn't say they are completely unrelated. FWIW I usually play on Epic and I also rarely build Chariot Archers (not never, though) and I do think that making them a bit stronger and more mobile would change that, but I get that this isn't the thread for that.
However, playing Epic means it would then take even longer to get horsemen and, frankly, I don't like warring without them...it gets a lot harder to chase down and finish off units as well as compensate for strategic errors on my part without a decent mobile unit, so I am still definitely against moving them back. Wars in the ancient era feel slow enough already (partly due to Epic, sure, but I still prefer that speed) and pushing horseman back would exacerbate this further.

 

[chicorbeef]

However, playing Epic means it would then take even longer to get horsemen and, frankly, I don't like warring without them...it gets a lot harder to chase down and finish off units as well as compensate for strategic errors on my part without a decent mobile unit, so I am still definitely against moving them back. Wars in the ancient era feel slow enough already (partly due to Epic, sure, but I still prefer that speed) and pushing horseman back would exacerbate this further.

The decent mobile unit you're looking for would be called the Chariot Archer.
If you rely on Horsemen for Ancient warfare I think that indicates that they are a little OP because Horsemen are also dominant in the Classical Era. I get that Horsemen should be powerful but Spears, Chariots, Archers and Swordsmen deserve more time in the sun.

 

[chicorbeef]

How does everyone feel about War Elephants? Should those be moved to Classical too?

 

[Enginseer]

How does everyone feel about War Elephants? Should those be moved to Classical too?

The only reason why Horsemen became so OP is because War Elephants got nerfed. We nerf the Horsemen, and there'll be "WTH why is spearmen rush so op now"

 

[chicorbeef]

The only reason why Horsemen became so OP is because War Elephants got nerfed. We nerf the Horsemen, and there'll be "WTH why is spearmen rush so op now"

I think this is just not true because I don't even see Elephants in 90% of my games.
Also Spearmen would not be as OP, they would be better balanced by Archers/Chariots.

 

[Enginseer]

I think this is just not true because I don't even see Elephants in 90% of my games.
Also Spearmen would not be as OP, they would be better balanced by Archers/Chariots.

That's the point. It used to be where if you had an ivory resource, you quickly went for Military Theory to get War Elephants up. With them nerfed, people started to research Animal Husbandry(to scout for horses), then rush for Military Theory for horseman spam to easily overwhelm cities.

When compared with other ancient units, the horseman is basically the best despite their city penalty attack for attacking. War Elephants just became too expensive and ate a strength nerf.

Would you do a spearman rush when a horseman can do the same if you have the horses? Of course not. With a -33% City Penalty Attack, Horseman basically have 9.9 Combat Strength which is the same as a Spearman except they are faster, can move after attacking, and can absorb ranged attacks better than a spearman can at a cost of only 20 extra Production.

And given the fact that chariot archers are considered "mounted units", it takes a spearman to attack them to instantly break them. Trying to use archers to counter spearman is pointless since if you're not using meat tanks(hence spearman itself) then you're not going to get much damage done to a spearman rush.

 

[CrazyG]

That's the point. It used to be where if you had an ivory resource, you quickly went for Military Theory to get War Elephants up. With them nerfed, people started to research Animal Husbandry(to scout for horses), then rush for Military Theory for horseman spam to easily overwhelm cities.

You can't rush military theory on ivory anyways because you need trapping to connect the ivory. You've always had to research animal husbandry to get military theory. War elephants are strong, but only in about 10% of games will a player or his immediate enemies have access to them.

Horsemen have been an extremely good unit for a very long time. They are actually weaker in recent versions than every before due to buffs to spears and archers, but still really good.