Moving on from Emperor Difficulty

[Peteyboy]

Hi everyone,

I have recently got back into Civ 4, a game which I periodically play every 2-3 years or so. I was always a Monarch standard player, struggling above that. In part due to the various advice I've seen posted across the forum, I have now tweaked my play (Less focused on across the board control, which easily works Prince and Below, and wins often at Monarch. Having won 7/7 at Monarch (I wanted a 70% win record to move up) I moved up to Emperor. I was due to start Immortal after 7/9 wins at Emperor, but thought I'd complete my 10 games. (I made a poor misjudgment in one of those losses.)

Having won the last 5, I find most my games follow a fairly similar but successful pattern. Aggressive settling, crank out units (whipping), beat up a neighbour, take map control, then either dominate tech to Cannons/Rifle/Cavalry (I don't get the Cuirassiers rush to work so well (the other aforementioned loss)) - and win from there, often capturing further cities, either pushing for Domination / Conquest victory (occasionally settling for Diplo / Space) - This 10th game, I got what I perceive to be an awkward start, with relatively poor food (albeit some plains) poor hammers, and Toku as a start, further complicated with difficult circumstance re neighbours. I saved it at a point (Turn 157) at a point where although I'm not actually lost, I see no realistic path to success. Would be happy to add if it helps.

What I'd like to ask some of the stronger players, even at Emperor (which is somewhat below Deity) - Could a start be so average, that there is no good prospect of winning. I feel even with the knowledge of who is near to me, and the map layout, I would still struggle to find a good setup, and 1 AI player has such a good start position for their traits, that I can't foresee that changing. The only possible change might be who I attack first, but it's a trek, and I'm not sure I'm any better off.

I saw a recently diagnosis of a game (albeit on prince) - which was insightful, despite the level. I'd be curious to see where a strong player would reach and how differently they would play it.

FYI - It's being played by the Bat Mad - It's a standard 7 player Pangaea on Emperor, with all standard settings (I appreciate that could shift results slightly (my 2 huts were a scout and a map )) - But normally that wouldn't be enough to deny me. Likewise things don't always happen in the same order, but I think fundamentally most aspects would happen the same.

Secondly, from my above way of playing, what am I likely to need to step up further? HIstorically, I've won a few Immortal, but very low success rate (Probably about 20%) - I find even the small increase adds that much more to research and out-teching to rush is insufficient. (Albeit the wins often come through drafting rifles with cannons.) - if another strong player does similar, they would outgun me / someone (I.E Van Oranje / Mansa etc) would out-pace me re Space etc. My aim is to be confident enough to take on Deity (and win) some day. But at the same time, I try to avoid watching videos, I try to learn by doing with some suggestions.

First post since 2009 on here and hope to contribute where I can. I also appreciate, there are a few "help me out" posts so if anyone wants to tell me to shove it, then please do!! I was just surprised on a Pangaea to see such a lack of options in the early game.

 

[Fippy]

Hiya, did you see wheat before settling?
4 1 tiles are not brilliant, but much better than starting with pottery and having no resource tiles
So you def. should have moved and not settled in place, 1NE looks fine.

Then you can start with Agri (which actually makes pottery 20% cheaper), or farm a floodplains instead afterwards and go mining + BW.
Early game decisions are important if your goal is deity someday, SIP counts as very bad move here.

Otherwise yup the surrounding land looks really poor.
With an agg. leader your first thought should be rushing someone (on Emperor) when that happens, and i think you know which unit that can be cos of that Kyoto resource

 

[drewisfat]

Low sea level also exacerbates the unfairness of a map - getting a lot of rich land all to yourself and the game can be decided pre-war. Getting a bunch of poor land can be worse than a little poor land and a nearby neighbor to attack. It can be a crutch if you're not comfortable fighting pre-lib, but on the whole I'd say it makes it harder to win consistently.

 

[sampsa]

What I'd like to ask some of the stronger players, even at Emperor (which is somewhat below Deity) - Could a start be so average, that there is no good prospect of winning.

In short, no. Say normal/pangaea/immortal is winnable every time by someone who beats deity regularly.

But at the same time, I try to avoid watching videos, I try to learn by doing with some suggestions.

This is a bit hard to understand. Instead of vague ideas you'd get concrete understanding of how things work.

 

[Peteyboy]

Thanks for the replies - I realised I made a mistake with my attachment - That wasn't the "Start" - I actually settled 1 north from the original position (I.E By chance ending up on where copper appeared. Had I SIP, I think it was even worse. Possibly something to be gained by using 1 additional turn and going one further north? Perhaps the 5 resource was slightly overlooked for settler purposes.

Re Teching - Depending exactly on position and start techs, would go Agr, Min, BW, TW, Pottery, Writing. Given the lack of obvious food, I went Pottery first, hoping to start utilising the only sources of gaining food anyway. Using a few turns to build a Barracks allowing growth.

In the game, I built up as many axemen as I could (I sent in 9) - to hit WK, capturing a couple of cities - A general lack of ability to reinforce (lack of food, even in my second / third city locations) + distance + lack of choice cities meant I had to end that. Ideally I would have gone west to Hattie (No protective, founder of Hinduism) - but that was even further, plus a UU of war chariot is devastating (or I have to waste too much time building a few spearmen)

Low sea level also exacerbates the unfairness of a map - getting a lot of rich land all to yourself and the game can be decided pre-war.

This is an interesting point - I'd never considered that it would make that much of a difference - TBH I think I've always selected low / random when I random Pangaea (I roll a die to determine which map I play (Sad right?)) - Perhaps I'll try high (which presumably means less land, and even quicker meeting.

In short, no. Say normal/pangaea/immortal is winnable every time by someone who beats deity regularly.

I figured you might say that - I'll skip forward to turn 157, where I got to - There were a couple of other saves with interesting points (I.E I decided after WK to get pyramids (which I seldom do, but with no easy further war prospect, figured either a large slice of fail gold or Rep would be good (Realising that 70% or 100% wasn't game breaking for me, Rep was better?!)))

What I can't see any obvious way past is what happens with JC - His start position is in plenty of space, combined with Imp, and easy Prets, even when I spammed out axemen vs WK I was still 0.6 to JC. By turn 157 he's just flattened Darius and it feels inevitable at some point, he'll flatten me. Without the ability to significantly out-tech. Whilst I could probably get to rifles etc before him, I would simply be outnumber. Ideally I'd still plan war on Egypt, but with everyone (including JC) liking Hattie, I'm not sure that has a happy ending, combined with her controlling the AP, albeit it's perhaps my only option (or hitting WK again, but still relatively little to be gained). Frustratingly horse and Iron for access are fiddly cities (1 settled, 1 barb captured.)

In my long title save game - I wondered whether it could still be won from the position. I'm OK technologically, can this be turned around? Or am I focusing too much on 1 AI enemy (I.E remove JC and I'm probably only a little behind.)

In short, no. Say normal/pangaea/immortal is winnable every time by someone who beats deity regularly.


This is a bit hard to understand. Instead of vague ideas you'd get concrete understanding of how things work.

Point taken! I guess it's like any strategy game, I am reticent to see how something is done through a walkthrough / equivalent (perhaps Civ doesn't quite fall into this category by it's situational nature) But little suggestions can go a long way.

 

[sampsa]

Can't open the save, but if you are OK technologically and have a decent amount of cities, it can certainly be won.

 

[Gumbolt]

Had a quick look.
Starting capital seems weak but has 3 flood plains and grassland river tiles. One cow resource near capital. It's a decent bureau capital site that should of been cottaged and skipped the scientists for more growth.
I like the wheat/sheep area north of your capital to grab food resources and help with cottages. Maybe a city to the east to help with cottages. 900ad that city should of had 12-13+ cottages all well developed.

Looks like you got AH around 2900bc so slow settler not unexpected. Did you settle where you started as unusual to settle on a resource.

Osaka seems late. I get the blocking idea but there is zero food resources in starting tiles and Korean capital likely gobbled the rice. Losing Wonsan site was a mistake given all the food and resources.

Tough starting save but maybe you could of expanded to 4-5 cities sooner. Then used a strong bureau capital to allow a 4 city whipping ground for samurai to break out early ads. 200-300ad? Slow start maight of delayed this. Contruction axe should of been possible at worst.

 

[Peteyboy]

Thanks - Gumbolt - I didn't SIP (I can't ever recall SIP on a resource?) - I moved North 1 place from original position (Just attached wrong save) - Yes I think the observation I have seen from the respondents overall suggests

1) Despite the flood plains - The option of going Pottery first was probably incorrect (I.E Should stick to Ag / AH / Min / BW (Dependant on what you start with) before Pottery? - Indeed I was slightly slow, losing by about 3 turns the Wonsan City.)
2) Osaka was a result of not gaining Wonsan - Indeed Rice was lost (semi-forcing my hand to DOW WK and capture capital to free it up.) Ultimately Kyoto went the same way re Egypt.
3) I've seen in this and other replies, that mines are general not advised, and that food trumps everything with mass whipping (perhaps until workshops later.) - I probably slightly over-mine balancing with
4) Gumbolt you've suggested that i should have kept cottaging in some citiies, I.E mass cottaging. I will do that in some cities, but if food is so-so at best, then producing anything will take a heavy impact (time etc) re lost citizens.
5) Sampsa - I'll play the game on, and see what happens - If JC doesn't DOW me in the next (probably 100!! Turns) - I should have a shot despite my so-so position. However with AP against me, realistically I can only see a Space victory being possible, or a very late technological turn-around.

Lastly, a recurring trend I've noted from members adding saved games. Is there any particular mod, which is most accessible to players for review purposes? I.E Gumbolt was able to open Bat, but Sampsa wasn't. I've used BAT for as long as I can remember, although if any other mods come recommended (I.E Buffy?) Then happy to take a suggestion.

 

[Fippy]

Some never installed BAT (long story), but everybody has the current Buffy version.

This start was special cos cows are also not something that most would go for (so much to tech without AH already).
Spending one turn on moving for wheat very much improves the situation.

If you didn't want to lose hills (by settling between wheat & cows) that's what Sampsa usually means..they are not worth planning around.
An early capital mine isn't wrong usually (for example while waiting for BW), useful while building settlers & workers. And to maybe finish warriors.
Building them while workers could do more important things triggers advice against them (rightfully so ).

New cities almost never need mines without resources on them, now most needed techs are already available and there must be something better to do.
They can be built in certain situations after resources, chopping, roads, cottages etc are taken care of..but add up all those worker turns

Early wonder builds are special ofc.

 

[Gumbolt]

No idea why i had that mod installed. Probably trying to help someone.
Flood plains are nice but you want strong food tiles for capital.
If you want a bureau capital then you pretty much improve food resources and cottage most tile and ignore mines. With 1-2 helper cities you can be improving 8-9+ cottages. Personally i cottage flood plains but some may farm 1 for growth.

So start wise you could not of seen the rice down south. 4f1h wheat is better than the delayed cows. Killing off a 1f5h copper is not good albeit you didn't know. Food losing tile but a lot of hammers.Then do you settle on a grassland river to allow cows too and 3 flood plains. Maybe take the hit here. Would of gained wine too albeit poor early tile.

If you are going to post 4000bc don't settle the city before posting.

Losing that wheat probably slowed you down many turns here. 5H tile for settler production. If you went BW a 6H tile for settlers lost.

 

[sampsa]

You can also enter worldbuilder and save it there on T0. Then everyone can play with any mod they please. Unfortunately worldbuilder saves don't work very well on later saves, you lose all in the -bar and every invested for example.

 

[drewisfat]

Mines are good with an IND leader (wonders/failgold/forges). Otherwise generally you just wind up building 1-2 at the start as a consequence of usually having high food in the capital and limited improvements workers can build. Pottery first only makes sense if you somehow knew you were isolated, and even then could be barb dependent.

The biggest issue you have though is with being goal oriented. I opened up your save and couldn't tell if you're about to attack someone or not. There's no reason to be building samurai AND courthouses in your posted save. Either we're attacking and they should all be making samurai, or we're not attacking in which case those samurai are just going to raise your upkeep costs. (It's also a bit premature for those courthouses in general as opposed to building wealth). Lastly, promotions shouldn't be chosen until you need them. It hurts to see a bunch of samurai with combat and drill instead of city raider.

BAT is a great mod, Sampsa just has a unique way of playing and is very stubborn

 

[sampsa]

BAT is a great mod, Sampsa just has a unique way of playing and is very stubborn

Yeh I'm guessing it's ok, I just don't like most of the changes it does and prefer BUFFY.

 

[Gumbolt]

If you settled for wheat first settler around 2640bc? second around 2240 or sooner if you head BW after agriculture. 4th pretty soon after if you kept on chopping.

Once the copper is improve you have a strong production city. You can pretty much grab rice and sheep site before the AI. I would probably settle 4th around capital for cottages. 3rd maybe next to sheep on dessert. Then you can spam cottages and decide where to go warfare wise.

 

[f1rpo]

You can also enter worldbuilder and save it there on T0. Then everyone can play with any mod they please. Unfortunately worldbuilder saves don't work very well on later saves, you lose all in the -bar and every invested for example.

Perhaps this is a good occasion to mention a fork of the BULL mod that I've uploaded last summer: the Taurus mod
Taurus can read BAT 4.1 savegames (and BUG and BULL - but not BUFFY, unfortunately, because of encryption) and export them to BtS (or BUG/ BULL) via Ctrl+Shift+S. I'm attaching Peteyboy's AD 940 savegame converted to the BtS format. Caveat: The save import/ export feature hasn't been tested a great deal.

 

[Peteyboy]

Mines are good with an IND leader (wonders/failgold/forges). Otherwise generally you just wind up building 1-2 at the start as a consequence of usually having high food in the capital and limited improvements workers can build. Pottery first only makes sense if you somehow knew you were isolated, and even then could be barb dependent.

The biggest issue you have though is with being goal oriented. I opened up your save and couldn't tell if you're about to attack someone or not. There's no reason to be building samurai AND courthouses in your posted save. Either we're attacking and they should all be making samurai, or we're not attacking in which case those samurai are just going to raise your upkeep costs. (It's also a bit premature for those courthouses in general as opposed to building wealth). Lastly, promotions shouldn't be chosen until you need them. It hurts to see a bunch of samurai with combat and drill instead of city raider.

BAT is a great mod, Sampsa just has a unique way of playing and is very stubborn

I think that sums up this game perfectly, I normally have a fairly good idea about how to proceed - Here I started with a view that the base terrain alone wasn't going to be good enough to win, so figured to expand, but with mediocre at best expansions, although I conquered some of WK, I couldn't finish the job and keep any kind of economy in tact. My loose plan is assuming that JC will shortly attack WK, and I'll ensure I have enough to pick up Wonsan, whilst he's distracted (+ he can't buy anyone into the war.) But as you said, it's a half way house, in reality, I think I have to effectively give up on military (If JC attacks me, it's over, regardless of how many units I crank out.)

Also agreed re Courthouses, I tend to build them a little earlier than I should. Often once built, I revert to building commerce / research as required.

As for promotions, yes... That's a little degree of laziness - A classic minor weakness, that adds up alongside a few other comments above, as to why I'm only an Emperor player as it stands, albeit ready to step up and see whether with the tips I see I can hold my own at Immortal, as supposed to rare wins at that level...!

Re Mods - Perhaps I'll look into Buffy and Taurus and see if I like them. (I hope I don't lose the improved graphics, not sure I could handle Pre-Bat graphics )

 

[Gumbolt]

So your first city was way too late here. Second settler out by 2200bc this way you grab all the key city spots. Notice how I have the sheep/wheat site. The Wonsan site and the stone/cow secured. My 4th city was settled 1640bc. The time of your 3rd city.

So start. Worker 15 turns. Warrior to size 3. Then double settler/worker. You end up with 3 cities by about 2200bc if you settle 1N. 4th city likely 1640bc too. You can then settle stone/cow. Plus the oasis site to help with cottages.

Courthouses are generally a waste unless city costs are over 8-10. Size 2 city with court house is over kill. 120H to save 1-2 costs?

My capital is size 10 and I am working many cottages by 4 cities. 10 cottages being worked. Likely should cottage the plains river tiles too.

The 2200bc aaa is from your save.
2200bc bbb by moving to grassland WB edited.
Other save continuation from the grassland capital.


425ad.
Went catapult/swords/axe/spear war with Egyptians.Mainly as not in my religion and hated by many. She had some nice land too.
Mostly wiped out Egyptians with a tundra city left and 3-4 techs taken in peace. Whipping cities hard has slowed down tech. (Think you skipped catapults for first war. Always a mistake near 1ad. Catapults really help. )
Persians are big tech leader here with 4-5 more techs albeit not many cities. Should catch them up once cities start to flourish and cottages develop.
Need Civil service and machinery going forward. Bureau will be sweet for capital. Maybe should of gone there first.
Up to 11 cities.
Aztecs and Americans not friends but at war with eachother. Doubt their army matches mine.

 

[sampsa]

Okay, opened the save. There is a lot of room for improvement, but I'll focus on the most glaring mistakes.

1. Workers! You have way way too few workers and you don't do the right things with them. 1.Improve food 2.chop 3.cottage 4.connect. CHOP! Chop settlers, workers, granaries as soon as you can.
2. Capital.
   Spoiler :

   

   You are at least 1000 years behind in development. By 1000BC I'd have a worked cottage in every green tile. This city is very bad for running specialists, due to low food. Capital should usually grow as big as possible.
3. Buildings. You are building too many. Markets, courthouses etc are unnecessary.
4. Units. You are building too many, for no apparent reason. Build wealth instead.
5. Strategic focus. You seem to have no. You are doing a bit of this and a bit of that. Strong play comes from having an idea what to do and executing it in the most efficient possible way!

I think it's very winnable from the save, but you need to correct those mistakes. I'd cancel most of the buildings and units you are building and whip 5 workers, start building wealth. Try to lib steel and conquer the map with cannons.

 

[Peteyboy]

Gumbolt - I can see how the city spamming, whilst it costs you short-term reaps rewards - Much of my early game, I prepared to DOW WK, costing me time for workers / settlers. You generally place a lot more cities even is so-so positions (The city on the right hand side coast I would deem marginal early doors, the sheer cost of maintenance would concern me (I am clearly over-valuing this as a problem, looking at your economy, even with mass wealth (which in most of my games would be my middle game.) I guess break-even is around 20% research. Indeed minimal buildings throughout, however you managed to wait for Cats (which I didn't) and perhaps most importantly you got the key city location just north of WK (Tokyo) - which I had to adjust my position.

What was quite curious is how different some elements of the game panned out (excluding the quality (or therein lack of)) - I.E different religious paths allowed you to go for the better target of Hattie (like in my attempt, she spammed wonders, and was so-so with strength at best.) Also JC is nowhere near as powerful, perhaps because he gained more space after my early attack on WK, perhaps also the expansion of Darius and Lincoln. That said, you are comfortable in any war situation that might arise (albeit less likely with pleased neighbours.) Out of interest I saw 2 ! for "you stopped trading with us" - Dare I ask, do you often accept demands for this, I rarely accept such requests... Unless it was somehow AP related?
Last observation was the lack of scouting - I've seen that comment before, where there is little need to scout, I will often try and sent my initial unit as far as I can (until it dies.) In the middle save (BBB save) - you had literally revealed almost nothing (not really scouting even with open borders?) - Any particular reason why (Or did barbs get your scout early (I hate an early bear...)

Sampsa - Yes, I'm often found a little wanting on workers - I laughed at a recent victory where I had 27 cities and 8 workers!! (Enough to connect railroad) but 4 of those had been captured...! I think I'm not aggressive enough chopping early doors (Unless Imp (settlers) or Exp (workers)
Markets - I only ever build in 3 cases. 1) When I have Holy City + Unique building - to increase gold (assuming some spread) - 2) When I've built Wall Street (If) - 3) When I've founded a Corporation. I will often build banks, mainly just for a) Wall Street, and b) just to allow greater flexibility of having to lower research. Courthouses - Point taken.

Units - Just one concern - building almost nothing else, is there not a point where I'm deemed too weak and JC (in my save) simply (being cautious (or annoyed half the time) - picks me as the easy target. I tried to build a few to try and prevent 0.38 becoming I.E 0.25 etc (or pick off Wonsan should the opportunity arise.)

Focus - Agreed, this has been a poor game from the word go, I wasn't quite sure how to play the game with a Civ I've rarely encountered, and a setup with so little obvious familiarity. I've ended up in no mans land - At the final position as it was, I had switched focus to try and tech up, whilst maintaining a little strength.
I'm assuming with those workers, you're suggesting chopping for further workers / settlers and spamming cottages and hoping peace ensues long enough to turn around the game (especially with Darius in my game so badly impacted.)

 

[sampsa]

Market - ah yes, you have a shrine. Still, it's probably a bad build to gain 4gpt. You could gain the same from selling resources, for free!

Units - in general, don't build units "just in case". If he starts to plot on you it's the time to build units.

Focus - no I didn't mean that you should expand now, nor that you should build cottages now. Cottages should be built in the BCs. Now I'd just get some farms to grow. Chops could go to later to trebs which you will upgrade to cannons at steel.