Nobles' Club 364: De Gaulle of France

[AcaMetis]

The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

Our next leader is De Gaulle of France, whom we last played in NC 284; we last played the French under Louis XIV in NC 355. The French start with Agriculture and The Wheel.

• Traits: De Gaulle is Charismatic and Industrious. Charismatic gives every city, Monuments and Broadcast Towers +1 , and decreases the exp required for units to level by 25%. Industrious gives a +50% bonus to all Wonders (World and National), and gives a +100% bonus to Forges.
• The UB: The Salon, an Observatory with +1 free Artist, providing +1, +4 and +3 GA . Not a bad bonus for cities facing cultural pressure, but your Great Person Pool will never be free from Great Artist pollution again.
• The UU: The Musketeer, a Musketman with 2 instead of 1. If you're attacking someone with Mounted units and are afraid of Pikeman sniping the strongest units in your army, bring along Musketeers as stack defenders. They can keep up with their allies on horseback. Somehow .

And the start:

Spoiler map details :

Fractal, Rocky climate, Medium sealevel.

Spoiler edits :

None.

Spoiler isolated? :

Not isolated.

The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC 364 De Gaulle Noble" (or Monarch, etc., for higher levels). You can play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.

Spoiler what's up with specific difficulties :

In each scenario file you can select your level of difficulty, but that doesn't give the AI the right bonus techs by itself. Use the Noble save for all levels at and below Prince. The Monarch save gives all the AI Archery. Emperor adds Hunting; Immortal adds Agriculture; Deity adds The Wheel.

Spoiler what is demigod :

The difference between Immortal and Deity difficulty is akin to the difference between Noble and Immortal. Players eventually reached a point where Immortal was too easy, but Deity was still out of reach, and so neither difficulty provided a fun experience. "Demigod" is an otherwise standard Deity game where the AIs are only given their Immortal level starting units, in an attempt to bridge the gap.

Spoiler for players on Monarch or above :

You should add archery as a tech for the barbarians (if you don't, the AI will capture their cities very early). This cannot be done in the WB save file and must be done in Worldbuilder as follows:

Spoiler how to add techs to the barbarians :

1. Zoom in all the way so you can't see the rest of the map.
2. Use the CTRL-W key (or the menu) to enter the worldbuilder. Avoid looking at the mini-map in the lower right corner.
3. By default you're in "player" mode (look in the box in the upper right; the icon that looks like a person should be selected). You'll get a drop down menu labeled with your leader's name. Barbarians are at the bottom, so cover the rest of the list with your hand if you don't want to see who else is on the map. Select "Barbarians".
4. Select the "Technologies" tab in the box on the left.
5. Find Archery (the arrow head icon; 8th row, 3rd column from the right) and click it.
6. Exit the worldbuilder.
7. Zoom out again after the map fades, and start playing.

If you're playing at higher level than Monarch, consider also giving them Hunting at Emperor, Agriculture at Immortal, and The Wheel at Deity.

Spoiler huts and events :

Note: The standard saves have no huts and have events turned off. If you want tribal villages and random events, choose the saves with "Huts" in their names. If you want huts but no events, select the Huts saves and use Custom Scenario to turn on the option that suppresses events.

 

[AcaMetis]

Awkward spot for a leader that doesn't start with Mining or Fishing, but Agriculture/Wheel can surely make something out of SIP . Truthfully I'm not sure if it's worth risking going further inland and leaving the coast for a second city. Wet Corn and the promise of river tiles due north seems to invite such a strategy, but who knows what's in the darkness - that Warrior sure doesn't, he's quite out of position here.

Yeah I've no idea how to play this. SIP into Fishing/Worker -> Mining/farm Corn -> pre-road tiles until Bronze Working while slow building at least one fishing boat? Worker/Mining->BW first, pre-chop/road while researching Fishing and sink hammers into a Settler as appropriate? Don't settle the coat at all and assume that whatever is out there at least some river tiles plus wet corn will be enough, leave the coast to a second city? What do the experts think of this?

(Why, yes, how to play coastal starts with a leader moderately ill-suited for them is a weak spot of mine. At least we're not Boudica, heaven forbid you get this start with Hunting/Myst as your starting techs )

 

[a pen-dragon]

I too am not that good with this kind of start. That being said, my thoughts about this start:
1) The tile 1E of the Settler is very suspicious, it could be a strategic resource.
2) The tile 2E of the Settler seems to have coast to the east, so there is a danger of ruining a clam if the capital goes 2N or 2N1E, also there might be fish in the corner that could be ruined.
3) The Warrior is not completely out of position. The tile 2N of them seems to be flat grassland (no forest), so by moving 1N we could reveal some tiles west of our Settler.
4.1) If the Warrior does not find anything to make SIP worthwhile I would like to walk the Settler. Maybe not 1E, since that would probably not change much and settle on a possible strategic resource. Also as mentioned above not 2N or 2N1E. So if we want to found our capital on turn 1 there are three possibilities: 2E and gamble on a fish (dubious, we go away from a fishing start), 2E2N to grab as much land and river tiles as possible (my favourite) and 2E1N which is some middle ground (probably only getting the worst of the two previous options).
4.2) If the Warrior does find something worthwhile, then SIP or 1W, if there is something 3N of the Warrior. 1N1W seems dubious due to making it impossible to build a lighthouse and the capital being the only city to be able to work the western clam.

 

[Thrasybulos]

Warrior 1N seems like a no-brainer.
Then... if nothing decisive found, I'd honestly be very tempted to send the settler 2N1E for scouting purposes. Even if it meant ending up wasting 3 turns to backtrack and SIP anyway (or should that be SISS in that case? Settle in Starting Spot)!
SIP has no commerce potential, no production potential: very poor capital spot. I suppose that 2 Clams + Wet Corn can produce/whip workers and settlers, and that's your capital's job in the early game, but how do you get to the stage where you're working both Clams in a timely fashion? You need Fishing + Mining + BW with zero commerce on your best tile. And what does your worker do in the mean time? Lay down roads?

So my non-expert opinion would be to prepare to go on a little adventure.

 

[soundjata]

De Gaulle... Where is my stone?

 

[elmurcis]

As very heavy coastal-city-builder in heart (like 99% of them) this for me feels one time to go inland and settle 2N2E (it keeps city spot for Clams 1W of Settler) to riverside. With forests around Mining->BW would allow some good quick settlychops.

 

[soundjata]

Moving inland to get what? Are we dreaming about cows or something?
Moving 2X2Y vs SIP = lose 1 turn + lose another turn to grow to size 2. Why would we do that?

 

[AcaMetis]

My idea with moving inland is mainly to delay needing Fishing tech and two Workboats to improve the capitol's tiles. Zero clue if that is optimal or not, as mentioned these kinds of coastal starts are a weakness of mine, but I feel like wet corn + river tiles is probably enough to start with so it feels like turns spend moving inland should be a net benefit over turns spend researching Fishing+building Workboats.

(Obviously it ultimately depends on what's in the fog, if there's another wet corn and two exposed Gems than moving inland is simply the better move, I just don't know what the better approach on average is.)

 

[Build2Much]

Thanks for hosting and good discussion. Not sure if I’m getting better, but I do think I’m seeing different things now, which might be good!?!

1. SIP is a good, food-rich city with coastal trade access and lots of chops. If that naked tile is copper and we have a lot of coast to settle, could be a great place to chop a cheap Colossus (have to use an industrious leader as intended!)

2. Worst case it is a great location for 2 scientists - plenty of food to support specialists.

3. Ag and Wheel start means I can farm and road to my next city for a faster settle (build settler at size 2). If I find a better location when I scout, can always move the capital to that 2nd city when it matters.

I’m not sure what the warrior could show me that would change my mind, but I’m pretty sure I’m in the SIP camp on this one.

 

[Tecumseh1]

I really don't want to go fishing with wheel/agri start and all these forests. My initial thought is move settler to 1N of the corn on T1. There should be more river tiles there. If there are no good uncovered tiles just settle on the hill on T2 and ruin one clam. If there is some grass/brown tile 1 tile north move and settle there to avoid ruining the clam. Not a big deal to run clams though IMO if it buys more land for the capital. Almost certainly going mining first. Then prob BW or maybe AH if there is some pig/sheep.

 

[chinemol]

Spoiler IMM t79 :

explored with settler, the initial position didn't satisfy me. got spot between corn and wheat. mining->BW-> AH. settled the pigs NW first, then the FP to the NE. horses where a happy coincidence, was trying to put distance between monty and my capital. was thinking of going horse archers, but think it may be late for that. If I go for mansa, monty will stab me in the back just because he is monty and I know he will attack. If I go for monty, then horse archers are better I guess, but mansa puts culture on me. will follow up tomorrow I guess

 

[Thrasybulos]

Moving inland to get what? Are we dreaming about cows or something?

Spoiler IMM t79 :

explored with settler, the initial position didn't satisfy me.

Did you find ?

 

[antimony]

Just looking at the initial screenshot, SIP with Mining-BW-Fishing is workable. On deity for example it's 25T to BW, just enough to fit in 2 farms (of course if 1E is copper, 2nd farm is wasted, but we can live with that). With CHA I would not be afraid to whip early, maybe even 1-whip a workboat.

 

[soundjata]

T94 Deity

Spoiler :

Moral Victory unlocked: box-in the dude who initially boxed-us-in (Musa)

I can bulb Compass. Is that good?

Techno:

Spoiler :

 

[soundjata]

Did you find ?

Spoiler :

yay

 

[AcaMetis]

Spoiler :

I can bulb Compass. Is that good?

Potentially. Compass can be good trade bait, and bulbing it early means having an initial monopoly on it. I don't recall where, but I do remember seeing one hopeless game being turned around because of a compass bulb and series of tech trades.

 

[sampsa]

@soundjata

Spoiler :

SoG™

 

[Build2Much]

Emperor- Really fun, allowed me to build way too many wonders and still win via domination 1844AD. Definitely have gotten better in the last 2 months, especially at the diplomacy stuff, might try immortal soon.

Thanks to Henrik - I watched his start of his DeGaulle Immortal “Wonder Economy” which helped me leverage Charismatic better than usual.

Spoiler :

SIP. starting tech path - MYSTICISM > mining > BW. Production was Worker > Stonehenge to size 2, Settler. Settler came out on the same turn I got BW, switched to slavery but didn’t use it much. Settled Orleans on the hill next to the mountains to work the wheat, cow, and all those hills. Great city, pumped out secondary wonders and became my HE city.

Built Stonehenge in Paris for the extra in every city, was great. Oracled metal casting 1400BC and followed up with Colossus and Great Lighthouse. Cheap forges FTW.

Used Metal Casting to catch up in tech once Alphabet was discovered by Isabella and then my best move was using metal casting and I think alphabet to get Monty to DOW Isabella in 475BC. I don’t think they ever saw peace for the rest of the game until I wiped him out later, and that left Mansa alone to tech with his 4 (eventually 5) cities until I was ready to just take his cities as my first target. Used trades and spies to get techs from him until I was ready.

Could have finished faster but I was debating doing culture and kind of stalled out during my Musketeer / Cannons / Cuirs / Cavalry march through Justinian and Isabella as I didn’t commit to an endgame. Paris hit legendary 9 turns before I won, but I never ramped up on cities 2&3 - still passively within 50 turns of culture victory as well. Joao did quite decently in my game, but couldn’t match my production with 34 cities at the end