mp startegy discussion - post patch changes

[MasterMishi]

Do you get to size 2 and then pump out settlers? scout monument build for example?

Or do you go scout monument worker and get to size 3 then go settlers?

post patch is monument a must build now?

competative multi strategy assumes beeline to iron and liberty beeline to free settler.

discuss....

 

[Tabarnak]

I'm tempted to go right through Landed elite. Warrior instead of monument and pump settlers at 3-4 pop production focused. Then it's grow time. Not played a multiplayer game since the new patch.

I did 4 cities--->Landed lite--->NC in my last 2 tries and this path seems the strongest i've seen so far. Going currency very early seems to be a must too. Chivalry is suddely close and Meritocracy--->Himeji looks like a good path too.

Big questions can be : Rifles or Himeji? Offensive or Defensive? Horizontal or Vertical expansion after the first REX? And so on.

Still trying many paths...but i like changes so far.

Edit : Yeah iron is still a must but free settler is not so powerful. Seems a waste of a policy. Landed Elite brings a LOT of producion.

 

[Biz_]

did they fix policy point saving yet?

 

[Tabarnak]

Just played my first mp game. Built 4 cities. Beelined Landed Elite. Had no iron, but got a calm neighbor who had to protect himself from Germany not so far away. I built some horsemen just in case. Showed some units to discourage him. Helped to peacefully built NC, markets, coliseums and universities.

Upgraded 4 chariot archers to Mandekalu Cavs. Got Meritocracy and picked a great engineer to rush Himeji. After National Treasury and 2 puppets,i rush buyed some universities. I had more than enough science and it propulsed myself to rifles in no time with a bulb from a gs. With 2 slots, universities are very appealing. Here some pics.

 

[MasterMishi]

Did you beeline iron or phhilosophy to try and get songhai uu?
i guess you went iron as it is vunerable start to go for the songhai uu with landed elite, despite being a strong start in the opinion of many.
did you find you picked up landed elite after you built the 4 cities?

 

[Tabarnak]

Did you beeline iron or phhilosophy to try and get songhai uu?
i guess you went iron as it is vunerable start to go for the songhai uu with landed elite, despite being a strong start in the opinion of many.
did you find you picked up landed elite after you built the 4 cities?

I guess you wanted to say ''philo to get ub''. Well didnt know before this game for the bypass monument for ub. Went iron early as always(always before turn 45 at least). If no culture ruin you can get LE around turn 35 i think. No settler bonuses in the beginning, but LE makes your cities growing fast enough to compensate the lack of settle speed.

Production is so nice under LE that i don't know how to get better without this policy soon enough. Maybe i will try a 2 cities strat to see if i can get monarchy instead and concentrate on getting ironworks faster. When i have multiple cities, happiness can be a problem and i find myself to build some early coliseums and/or circuses.

I played a guy who stayed at 1 city and he got rifles under 100 turns. He puppeted everything around him(many city states around his civ and one AI...) but i got rifles only 5 turns later and with more gold and production. Gotta love the Meritocracy--->Himeji rush. For large empires, it's really nice. Many players rushed Meritocracy early and got some wonders like GL and Stonehenge but i don't think it's a good idea. LE is more important early on. It's almost 40% more production when used efficiently. I can skip workshop and build market for my first 80 hammers building(actually a mix of markets and coliseums is great, with synchro to let latest cities finish at same time to begin the national treasury ASAP).

 

[Smote]

I guess you wanted to say ''philo to get ub''. Well didnt know before this game for the bypass monument for ub. Went iron early as always(always before turn 45 at least). If no culture ruin you can get LE around turn 35 i think. No settler bonuses in the beginning, but LE makes your cities growing fast enough to compensate the lack of settle speed.

Production is so nice under LE that i don't know how to get better without this policy soon enough. Maybe i will try a 2 cities strat to see if i can get monarchy instead and concentrate on getting ironworks faster. When i have multiple cities, happiness can be a problem and i find myself to build some early coliseums and/or circuses.

I played a guy who stayed at 1 city and he got rifles under 100 turns. He puppeted everything around him(many city states around his civ and one AI...) but i got rifles only 5 turns later and with more gold and production. Gotta love the Meritocracy--->Himeji rush. For large empires, it's really nice. Many players rushed Meritocracy early and got some wonders like GL and Stonehenge but i don't think it's a good idea. LE is more important early on. It's almost 40% more production when used efficiently. I can skip workshop and build market for my first 80 hammers building(actually a mix of markets and coliseums is great, with synchro to let latest cities finish at same time to begin the national treasury ASAP).

Skip workshop?! It's so good now!

 

[Tabarnak]

Skip workshop?! It's so good now!

I prefer to upgrade units with gold than building them. It's faster. That's why i think for large cities under LE : markets>workshops.

I don't say that workshops suck it's just because you may get lack of gold a bit later with all this maintenance. For smaller civs, i can understand for obvious reasons.

And remember, when you get metal casting you can't build warriors and upgrade them. It's 2-3 turns swordmen, building them the hard way takes more time. You need money for upgrades when you reach Steel too. I like to raise a 6 swordmen armies in only 5 turns...

 

[Smote]

My last game I was making 1-2 turn musketeers in each of my 3 cities . Needless to say, the world quickly fell While upgrade-rushes work well for swords and longswords, I find sustainable production is much more powerful. Upgrade rushes are just a trick, and should not be emphasized by sacrificing production for marketplaces over workshops.

Workshops provide 2-8 production, depending on city base production. Marketplaces provide 3-5 gold in a rich city, and 1 gold in a poor city. I'll take 2-8 hammers over 1-5 gold anyday.

 

[Tabarnak]

My last game I was making 1-2 turn musketeers in each of my 3 cities . Needless to say, the world quickly fell While upgrade-rushes work well for swords and longswords, I find sustainable production is much more powerful. Upgrade rushes are just a trick, and should not be emphasized by sacrificing production for marketplaces over workshops.

Workshops provide 2-8 production, depending on city base production. Marketplaces provide 3-5 gold in a rich city, and 1 gold in a poor city. I'll take 2-8 hammers over 1-5 gold anyday.

I don't know where you get such results. A market is a minimum of 3 gold(if you work at least 2 gold from your city) and can jump over 10 gold for bigger and richer cities. National treasury in a rich populous capital provides even more gold.

For later units, well yeah workshops are needed. When im close to rifles, i usually had almost or all my workshops and the ironworks. In my last game, i built 3-4 turns riflemen and i overflowed the map litterally(had like 25 of them and some cannons). The good thing with NT built is the possibility to rush buy building instantly(i mean how can you do faster than a 0 turn build?) or i can rush-buy riflemen each 5 turns as well(like a free city after all), assuming i can get over 100 gold per turn.

These 2 buildings are crucial for further developments but for my actual style of play i prefer markets over workshops first for many reasons(running LE very early giving me enough hammers, chivalry rush for Himeji for example or to get enough money to rush buy a university in cap to run scientits ASAP). You said you stayed at 3 cities. I think for smaller civs the workshop is more benificial than 5+ cities for the first 80 hammers building category.

The good thing about this discussion is we don't have the same answer...i bet it's because the obvious is not so obvious...

Edit : ok i read my last post. I said ''for larger cities''....i wanted to say ''for larger civs''

 

[Tabarnak]

I tried a game with workshops first and i got nice result despite the higher maintenance. Had lot of rivers and happy mines to support everything. I deliberately delayed Currency. I stayed afloat in gold for many turns until i built these markets. Went monarchy earlier than before to help this out.

Couldn't rush buy a university but still got nice results. I runned an engineer to rush Himeji later. Many good wonders can be catched like this around turn 85-90.

In conclustion, i think land may dictate the best way to go around this. Assuming 4+ cities, if i get a choke point but with on a poor riversided land with few gold production, currency might be better. On the other side, with more foes around with no really choke points, but with rivers, workshops can be the way to go.

Poor gold, choke point--->can delay key military(defense) techs--->currency,civil service, education beeline can do a nice job

High gold, no choke point--->Steel needed, workshops among the way

 

[MasterMishi]

I played earth tiny built 5 core city and puppetted 5 killing 2 players and controlling all the old world. Beelined monuments and kreposts in the cities, pumped out 17 units longs and trebs a musket or 2. Usa had himeji and defended me and had 100 beakers to my 70 (NC i think).
But i suicided my troops as i was -15 gold per turn. I could stay +22 gpt with 3 units and gold focus but as soon as i went to go prod focus and pump rifles i went -15 gpt. How could i have played this better? Built libs markets instead of units for usa invasion? Gold is so hard to come by now. I had unhappiness, resources were few even tho i had whole old world. all my city were pop 5 ish and gold poor. i built no tradeposts.

 

[Tabarnak]

all my city were pop 5 ish and gold poor. i built no tradeposts.

Try Landed Elite. If you can keep getting happiness, your cities will grow in no time, providing yourself more tiles to generate gold, and production.

 

[Smote]

I played earth tiny built 5 core city and puppetted 5 killing 2 players and controlling all the old world. Beelined monuments and kreposts in the cities, pumped out 17 units longs and trebs a musket or 2. Usa had himeji and defended me and had 100 beakers to my 70 (NC i think).
But i suicided my troops as i was -15 gold per turn. I could stay +22 gpt with 3 units and gold focus but as soon as i went to go prod focus and pump rifles i went -15 gpt. How could i have played this better? Built libs markets instead of units for usa invasion? Gold is so hard to come by now. I had unhappiness, resources were few even tho i had whole old world. all my city were pop 5 ish and gold poor. i built no tradeposts.

I find the best way is to use a combination of production focus, and locking tiles that you need worked. Examples of locked tiles are resources/luxuries, or 4food tiles if you want to grow. The city governor AI is not smart enough to optimize and must be helped along.

A solution to your problem is likely to make sure that the luxury tiles (cotton, furs, etc) are worked, even while on production focus. Luxury tiles are key to supporting the maintenance and upkeep of a hammer economy.

 

[Smote]

The last game I posted about, I did HBR -> IW -> Writing -> Steel -> Education -> Currency -> Machinery -> Fertilizer -> Rifles

Needless to say, my tech wasn't all it could have been due to my warmonger tech order. My hammer output was wonderful, which is what mattered. Removal of 33% bonus from oligarchy means tech advantage is not necessary for war anymore. The 3city civ was due to lack of more than 3 river/hammer spots, and I didn't want any low quality cities delaying national wonders. I also managed to puppet 4 or so other cities with the longswordsmen.

The quick HBR was to make proper use of the many pastures I had in my civilization (stables)

Policy order (France) was Landed Elite -> Monarchy -> Theocracy -> Liberty (for more golden ages w/ Meritocracy and the one next to it, but I won first).

I followed army with 2 workers (and pyramids), building roads all over the combat area. This enabled my cannons to move/shoot, and my troops to reinforce and get to friendly ground for healing faster. Combined with machinery, building roads everywhere in a combat chokepoint provides deadly tactical advantage.

My two mistakes that game were:
1. Messed up my GS/GE double pop. (Was distracted because of German neighbor with piles of landsknechts, with army still finishing off Russia)
2. Should have gone writing before IW and built NC sooner. Horsemen alone could've stalled until longswords. Would've had an easier time overall.

 

[Tabarnak]

I like the policy route you talked about. I tried some more games and i think for Liberty it's more optional now.

workshops--->markets--->universities seem also a really strong path(if gold is really scarce maybe some markets first).

If many luxuries around, i would be tempted to put 5-6 cities and go ahead with them for a long period of time and play defensively.

 

[Smote]

Its really the opportunity cost of Liberty that makes me almost never take it. The only time I would is if I am putting the +50% settler production to full use. I have not yet tried playing wide style since the patch, since tall got so many buffs, and wide got some nerfs (collo, theatre, trading post, center tile yield). The extra hammer from republic should be competitive with LE as well.

For wide I'd probably do France 1city NC, with policy order Tradition -> Liberty -> Republic -> LE. I agree that it needs a lot of luxuries (likely 4 minimum) to work properly. Hopefully, NC finish would synchronize with grabbing republic. (Monument before library might be good as well, and get free temple later- haven't studied the timing.) This build would be susceptible to a rush, but a real winner eventually. Whatever method gets Republic + LE as soon as possible is preferred. This is probably the preferred start vs AI as well, since it excels at grabbing luxuries.


I think if gold is scarce markets should be avoided even more. In this case, try to pool all gold and expect negative upkeep, but try to rush/conquer someone with better land before you reach 0. Early game, markets are really only good with monarchy and/or national treasury, and nearly useless otherwise. My cities rarely make more than 12 gold.

Wide Egypt with trying to get free Burial Chambers could be interesting as well. Collo nerf makes burial chamber even better by comparison. Let's see, 3 happy -2 gold, or 2 happy + 2 culture, 0 gold.

 

[Smote]

You're right about the markets being good and a potential option over workshop. I did not realize they were upgraded to +2 gold !

I still prefer workshop, but I agree it isn't a no-contest decision.

 

[Tabarnak]

Played a game yesterday where i got a bad land shape with no rivers and a lot of hills. I settled 7 cities...i finished NC very late and could support all this with 5 luxuries and traded one with a civ for a total of 6. After turn 110 my production was so high and the 2 guys on left and right of me put me at war but with Himeji i easily resisted with 2armies on both side with fortified Riflemen in forts placed on forested hills.

Pretty fun game overall. France was runned by BloodNinja, a very good player and csbrian another veteran. They were not noobs after all. They finally quit saying that i was too strong to compete against me even teamed. At turn 120, my production was over 120 per turn and 200+ science as well.

Edit : I picked a random leader and got Arabia. With 7 cities, the +2 gold from trade route is significant. Camel archers are not bad for defensive play as well. I like this guy.

 

[Smote]

nice I strive for 120 production with 3-4 cities. Hammers can make up for late NC, especially if you get porcelain tower.

my last game i had 8!! pastures in my capitals radius. It was a OCC, no river, but the pastures were all I needed to dominate w/ stables. Built about 4-5 2-3 turn wonders in a row. Went from 2 pikemen and a crossbowman to 10 rifles in about 10 turns. Split armies and conquered 2 people at once.