MPPs suck

[Trinity]

The Iroquois are acting twitchy around my borders. The Persians are annoyed but behaving themselves. Hammurabi, that Saddam Hussein of Babylon, became annoyed with me, but nonetheless contacted me for an MPP saying that together we'd be invincible. I look at the bean counter, and true enough. I'd finally taken the lead in pts. So I decided on the MPP since I needed to retain the RoP for commerce. It's amazing how unhappy the French become when they miss out on a luxury resource.

Next thing I see is the Iroquois attack Persia. Persian Immortals start wearing down the Iroquois. I'm smiling. Then Hammurabi joins the Iroquois in the war. I sit on the sidelines until my foreign advisor prompts me that we are obligated to declare war on Persia under our MPP with Babylon. Hey, Persia didn't start this thing. I was trying to remain neutral. Besides, Persia is so far away from me it would take me 20 turns to get a decent force there.

So I declared war on Persia. What do I do? Go shell a few coastal cities then go home? I was planning on entering on the side of Persia and squeeze the Iroquois between us after they wittled themselves down a bit.

I could switch sides, but then the AI would hold it against me the rest of the game. I'm not under any circumstances going over to war mobilization.

Am I obligated to remain in the war until the bitter end? Can I sit and still do nothing to contribute to the war, or would this make the AI mad?

Or should I settle with Persia after a couple of turns, and make a trade embargo against Babylon and the Iroquois with the rest of the world? Hammurabi would be incensed. Then I could side with Xerses against the two superpowers. I need some damage control here.

 

[BiatchGuy]

you know what I hate about MPPs?

the way, when you have an MPP with another civ, they can go off and start a war, and you're still obligated to fight alongide them. It's a good way to get suckered into being an accomplice to AI aggression and imperialism.
or, conversly, a good way to sucker the AI into being an accomplice for your imperialism...

I think MPPs shouldn't be like that though. They should apply to defensive wars only. If your "brothers" get attacked you should have to defend them but if they go off warmongering there shouldn't be any strings attached.


know what I'm saying?

 

[damunzy]

Completely agree biatch...but what are we to do?

 

[Cartouche Bee]

Originally posted by BiatchGuy
you know what I hate about MPPs?

the way, when you have an MPP with another civ, they can go off and start a war, and you're still obligated to fight alongide them. It's a good way to get suckered into being an accomplice to AI aggression and imperialism.
or, conversly, a good way to sucker the AI into being an accomplice for your imperialism...

I think MPPs shouldn't be like that though. They should apply to defensive wars only. If your "brothers" get attacked you should have to defend them but if they go off warmongering there shouldn't be any strings attached.


know what I'm saying?

MPP's are defensive! You only get dragged into the war if they are attacked not if they do the attacking.

 

[Trinity]

So if your foreign advisor tells you that you are obligated to declare war because of your MPP, then you are participating in a defensive action? I don't think so, since some of the skirmishes were taking place in my territory and the Iroquois were definitely the aggressor. They declared war on Persia, not the other way around. Then Babylon allies with the Iroquois, gets attacked and I get dragged into the fray? This is bullsh*t. Oh well, I might as well consolidate my territory on that continent.

Then hold both the Iroquois and Babylon in my debt and treat them as family.

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Originally posted by Cartouche Bee


MPP's are defensive! You only get dragged into the war if they are attacked not if they do the attacking.

Sorry, this is true but doesn't work as it should! If the one AI takes a city from the other and the other tries to take it back, this is considered offensive action!

Imagine Turkey taking Beirut, Syria tries to take it back and NATO declares war on Syria because they try to get their land back! This is how it works in Civ3!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Quentin]

Well I guess there should be a way to refuse action and break the MPP. All agreements can be broken in the real world, it's just that people don't like it. Make it so that the lost of reputation for breaking the MPP is TREMENDOUS(only if your partner is fighting a defensive war).

 

[LKendter]

MPP can be valueable, but you have to be VERY carefull when you sign them.

In the current GOTM#8 -
I saw a whole stack of one civs units cross my borders.
I sign one MPP. Demand that civ leave - they declare war.
Sign an MPP with another civ - instant ally.

I get hit with a couple of LAME attacks -
most of there units retreat to deal with the other threats.
I am now hoping to steal a few cities including the ones near my ONLY coal source.

 

[bobgote]

If you had an MPP with both of the civs in the war, the one that makes the first attack is the one that you will go to war against with your MPP, the other one is then void.

Trinity, in your example, to avoid a rep hit, you must wait until the MPP with babylon is expired, and cancel it. You don't have to actually attack them, but you can't make peace or rep hit ensues.

 

[Cartouche Bee]

Originally posted by Trinity
The Iroquois are acting twitchy around my borders. The Persians are annoyed but behaving themselves. Hammurabi, that Saddam Hussein of Babylon, became annoyed with me, but nonetheless contacted me for an MPP saying that together we'd be invincible. I look at the bean counter, and true enough. I'd finally taken the lead in pts. So I decided on the MPP since I needed to retain the RoP for commerce. It's amazing how unhappy the French become when they miss out on a luxury resource.

Next thing I see is the Iroquois attack Persia. Persian Immortals start wearing down the Iroquois. I'm smiling. Then Hammurabi joins the Iroquois in the war. I sit on the sidelines until my foreign advisor prompts me that we are obligated to declare war on Persia under our MPP with Babylon. Hey, Persia didn't start this thing. I was trying to remain neutral. Besides, Persia is so far away from me it would take me 20 turns to get a decent force there.

So I declared war on Persia. What do I do? Go shell a few coastal cities then go home? I was planning on entering on the side of Persia and squeeze the Iroquois between us after they wittled themselves down a bit.

I could switch sides, but then the AI would hold it against me the rest of the game. I'm not under any circumstances going over to war mobilization.

Am I obligated to remain in the war until the bitter end? Can I sit and still do nothing to contribute to the war, or would this make the AI mad?

Or should I settle with Persia after a couple of turns, and make a trade embargo against Babylon and the Iroquois with the rest of the world? Hammurabi would be incensed. Then I could side with Xerses against the two superpowers. I need some damage control here.

Well, if you sign a MPP you better be prepared to go to war. Anyone that you sign a MPP can sign other agreements and get entangled in conflicts you may not wish to get involved in. If you pursue MPP's you should secure the agreement with every civ that you don't want to go to war with or sign with all civs so you are always be on the winning side.

May not work the way you want but if you want to use them, it will require alot of commitment and a certain loss of control. By signing a MPP to retain a ROP you were maneuvered by the AI into a deal that strengthen their position and not yours in this case, hence your dilemma.

CB

 

[Bill_in_PDX]

Originally posted by Trinity


Am I obligated to remain in the war until the bitter end? Can I sit and still do nothing to contribute to the war, or would this make the AI mad?

You should stay in the war until your MPP expires, then end it, followed by peace with the Persians. You don't actually have to contribute anything in terms of military force to honor your agreement.

After the MPP is done, and you are at peace, assuming no other deals are in place, you can turn around and join the other side if you still want to.

Bill

 

[Trinity]

I took a city to give me a port on the other sea. I lost no units.
Then I noticed there's a couple of Persian cities with multiple gem resources that I'm going to send a few Galleons and 4 Ironclads with cavalry and riflemen over to take. By the time I get there Persia should pretty much be toast from the Iroquois and Babylon, although I'm expecting Persia to kick their butts. Iroquois mounted warriors are no match for Immortals.

There are so many options. I would like to undo the damage to my reputation, and I don't want the Iroquois and Babylon to get more powerful than they already are.

 

[Sir Durfey]

I think there should be two types of MPP;
- Defensive, in which case you help a country only if it's attacked
_Agressive, you help a country whether if it's the defender or agressor.

Can make things simple me thinks.

 

[Alphidius]

Allow me to give a suggestion:
I think the only way to solve this problem is to have a Casus Bellum/Belli or Cause For War (like in EU). A reason for going to war will distinguish an honourable friend from a back-stabbing brute.

Also, it should put the reputation of all the civs in the diplomacy screen, + means good and - means bad. And for MPPs if the player declines joining the war since his partner is the aggressor, there should not be a penalty on his reputation. On the contrary, if you join the war with them, you should get a big hit on your rep since you know they're the aggressor and you're ganging up with them against a third party, unless if you've a Cause For War with the third party.

Negative rep will result in suspicion from your current allies and generally makes diplomacy more difficult for the player and mood of other civs should change too.

As for the Cause Of War, an event which gives the civ a Cause For War could be a number of things. Cultural flip of a city, a trade embargo, exposure of espionage acts, MPP partner gets attacked, trading partner has the trading resource city/colony destroyed by a third party etc...

Just my cents worth

 

[Trinity]

Well, I took New Periopolis, a distant Persian colony just to keep the Iroquois from getting it. Then it took about 12 turns to get enough troops together to go after the Persian heartland. I took Kandahar, where the gem resource is. We were going after Antioch, a large metropolis, and both Persia and I needed reinforcements to fight there, since Persia was occupied on the western front with Babylon. It was going to take another 4 turns to get reinforcements there. Xerses contacted me and wanted a Peace Treaty, so I took it. My reinforcements arrived and we consolidated our position. Resistance was significant, but the unhappiness was caused by "End the draft! Hell no, we won't go!" So once we put down the resistance, it was 6 happy faces.

Xerses is furious, for good reason. The Zulus are cautious. The rest of the world is annoyed. Babylon went over to Communism.

Your foreign advisor does tell you about the civs. "Hammurabi is a known liar and cheat, so deal with him carefully." "Caesar has backstabbed our friends, the Babylonians." Those are minuses. I guess they now see, "Joan has attacked our friends, the Persians." "Joan has backstabbed the Babylonians (by signing an armastice with Persia)".