Multiplayer: Luck or Strategy?

[onedreamer]

Now, are we talking about the sun mana that gives 7 hammers? Because it takes a l0ng time to see iron. I do not see how 7 hammers starting on turn 1 is the same thing as 7 hammers starting on turn 60-90. I would geusstimate the difference to be about 4 hammers per turn x 60 turns = 240hammers = 1 wonder or 3 defended cities or a nice platoon better. At turn 60, I would say that the iron is worth nothing when my sun mirror army comes knocking on your door.

Perhaps you had not catched the fact that I was speaking of the STRATEGIC bonus of having Iron, not of the yeld bonus. +7 production hammers in your whole civ is not such an incredible advantage as you picture, like I said no bigger than if you had iron and I had neither iron nor copper. If you don't see that it's the same thing it doesn't mean that it's not, maybe you just don't see it or don't want to see it because you assume too much stuff...

Luck should not be a factor in pvp. I like to play strategy games. If I wanted games of luck, I would buy a lottery ticket; however, my understanding of odds and probability impairs my ability to enjoy slot machines.

It's not necessarily PvP since the AI can be involved in multiplayer, anyways the game (not even the mod) is based on luck, like any other game I can think of, if you don't like it then just don't play games.

 

[Lord Yanaek]

S
+2 is same as pigs? I think that pigs are 3 (assuming no hill), +2 for pasture. That's +1 at start, not +2.

Well, i can certainly be wrong here. I thought pigs were among the most food productive special resources, and that's why i thought they were +2 by themselves, but i'm not sure. However, it was example, not "must-be" values.
Yield may also increase in several small steps, start at +1, becomes +2 with an early tech, then +4 ...
Concerning the Grigory and leaves, i think Cassiel can't research religions. So no risk he would steal the leaves. However, the large bonus to Ygg should be avaialble with a tech everyone can grab, something other than Way of the forest (or whatever it's called in the English version.

 

[xienwolf]

onedreamer: They are also talking strategic value, but since in late game (multiple cities) the strategic value is minimal (7 extra hammers is pretty nice, but not imbalancing in an empire with 10 cities), they are discussing the early game strategy. This means you JUST built your FIRST city. Everyone else in the world takes 10-20 turns to pop out a second scout, but you take 3 turns for it.

This is a strategic boost, and it is one of incalculable measure.


Personally though, I like to think that the insane production of each tile is just there to give them a reason to be in the game. But in actuality they will produce more "normal" levels later on when there are quests tied to them.

 

[Bad Player]

Ecofarm I think you still have a lot of luck involved in games - you might start on an island or you might start in a wasteland (e.g. large jungle/tundra) area and other possibilities. Moving away can help but you lose valuable turns and put yourself very close to other civs.

So I think there always is (and should be) some luck involved in MP games.

 

[Calavente]

yep, there always is luck...at least in civ...

are you close to the luchuirp or to calabim ?
was there a gold mine near your capital ? or just mithril, iron and ... gunpowder .. second is better, but not for a capital...

tiny island... but you are calabim !!!! (or even worse : aztec !! no early rush!!)

not a mana node nearby, but you are amurite !!

it is not a game as starcraft or warcraft3 where everybody starts equal save for the race...

here, terrain in itself is so much difference...

but I agree with the overpowering of those you call 'cheater ressources'
I like the idea of them being big advantage at first : +2 or +3...(but not overpowered just a big advantage) and then the rest is triggered by a tier II tech... such as hunting, trade, philosophy... then it will really kick in when other player have time to exploit a 2-3 city, or even find there own 'cheater ressource'...

my 0.2

 

[onedreamer]

onedreamer: They are also talking strategic value, but since in late game (multiple cities) the strategic value is minimal (7 extra hammers is pretty nice, but not imbalancing in an empire with 10 cities), they are discussing the early game strategy. This means you JUST built your FIRST city. Everyone else in the world takes 10-20 turns to pop out a second scout, but you take 3 turns for it.

This is a strategic boost, and it is one of incalculable measure.

Even incalculable ? Please... we're very, very far from it being a decisive advantage. Not in FFH2, at least. I would agree that in a normal Civ game it would equal to an early rush, but in a FFH2 multiplayer game, it's not so easy to get with your troops to your neighbors cities, and even if you do, when you loose (likely) battles, you strengthen your opponent much more than regular civ. We could also discuss of the probabilities of having Sun mana inside your thin cross, but let's continue to just say that it's a matter of luck and that there are bigger advantages than this during the whole game ?

 

[Ecofarm]

Nothing is a bigger advantage (strategically or otherwise) than me having 500% of your production for the first 50 turns (or m0re) (in quickspeed).

my 0.2

You're only allowed to put 2 cents in, take 18 back.

 

[Demus]

ofcourse, what doesn't kill the defenders makes them stronger, but with such a production surplus, you can get an attacking army well over 3x the size of the defender. Good luck to anyone trying to beat those odds.

 

[Lord Yanaek]

Well, if you really wants no luck in starting position, you could always create a custom map with exactly similar starting locations. This would solve every problem.

However, to address this particular issue ("cheater resources"), i think delaying parts of the bonuses with techs is enough.

Then, if someone really hates luck, he should play chess rather then civ. But i don't think anyone has such an absolute position, we are only discussing some potentially extremely unbalancing items. Of course it's not more unbalancing then having someone start on a small island or in the jungle, but there's no need to add potential issues just because some are already present.

 

[xienwolf]

Well, not being a fan of any early rush strategies, I still say it is incalculable because if you aren't pumping military there are a myriad possibilities for what you can do with the spare hammers or gold. Yes, spamming military is a pointless idea. But you can produce 3 scouts to their 1, meaning that you can explore the vast majority of the map before they even find their first neighbor. You can know precisely where the next closest "cheater" resource is, and be the first to create a settler, allowing you even a second super-city (if it is close enough that is). Even without finding a cheater resource, you can find reagents or any other optimal resource for your civ and be the first to pounce on it.

All in all, it is the insane quantity of options that makes it so powerful. Personally, I like it that way, and I would want to allow it to happen in multi-player, but I get the arguement against it (out of curiosity, do you forbid people to play Elohim? They can easily move in 2 or 3 turns to grab a cheater resource for their first city. One of their strengths as a civ IMO. Also, do you know for sure they really had a cheater resource, and didn't just call it because they were in the middle of a large jungle patch?)

 

[Randolph]

Also, do you know for sure they really had a cheater resource, and didn't just call it because they were in the middle of a large jungle patch?)

Ha! I like that, "sorry guys, my starting position is just TOO good, I guess we're going to have to restart..."

 

[MagisterCultuum]

hmm... in your hypothetical quote he didn't say too good for whom

 

[Ecofarm]

Well, if you really wants no luck in starting position, you could always create a custom map with exactly similar starting locations. This would solve every problem.

It's called mirror (an existing map option) and I use it for 1v1; however, in 3+ games I accept the imbalance of starting positions and count on diplomacy (score assessment) and other factors to balance things.

Ha! I like that, "sorry guys, my starting position is just TOO good, I guess we're going to have to restart..."

That is exactly what we do (because of sun mirror, remnants, dragon bones, and tree fruit).


I would add:

Getting a great sage from writing is overpowered. In 1v1 MP, it decides the game. It's like oracle (2 techs at +50% [academy] = 2 techs for 1, free tech). When playing 1v1 MP, I delete the sage even if the other person thinks it is ok. In MP > 2 players, I guess it is ok (not game deciding) but overpowered.


ps. Would you please stop telling me to not play civ (ffh). I love the game and that is why I post here - in hopes of making it better, learning, and (though extremely rare) contributing to collective understanding. While I appreciate the fanboy attitude (and have no problem exibiting it myself), yours is misplaced atm.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

That is exactly what we do (because of sun mirror, remnants, dragon bones, and tree fruit).

I don't think you understand what he meant. He is saying that someone you're playing against may be being deceitful, claiming to have a start that is too good because his starting position actually sucks and he would rather start over in the hopes of having a good start (possibly even claiming to have a unique feature in the hopes of actually having one later.)

perhaps you were being naive because: (from the Clues you've been playing too much FFH)

Spoiler :

9. You never lie, cheat, or swindle, on the grounds that "those features won't be implemented till Shadow."

 

[Ecofarm]

Fine, in that spirit, I will spill my guts. Host can see cheater resources in blackness, world view (optics required sometimes?).

PS. How about a discussion on writing giving a sage being game breaking in 1v1, and overpowered in >2 MP?

 

[onedreamer]

Nothing is a bigger advantage (strategically or otherwise) than me having 500% of your production for the first 50 turns (or m0re) (in quickspeed).

You're tweasting reality. Based on what do you assume to have 500% more production of anyone else for 50 (!!!!) turns in quick speed ? First off, to have sun mana in your thin/fat cross, you will have settled your city in the desert = low production. Let's assume I started in a forest and since I am as lucky as you, I got Yggdrasil. In much less than 50 turns in quick speed I will have at least your same production. By the time you find my capital and actually set up a warrior army that counts at least twice my warriors your advantage is gone. But let's assume that I am unaware of your advantage and will not build any defense, because I am masochist or I am not lucky and have no Yggdrasil, and you take over my land, you still have to win all the other opponents, and at this time Sun Mana won't help nearly as much as having copper or iron or something else; unless it's a duel map, in which case you won due to extreme luck and we restart, what's so bad about it ? It's a game and luck is a game component. At the end of the day anyways I think that this resource is not yet finished, kinda a placeholder. You could ask to make it appear only with Knowledge of the Ether, fine, but then you or someone else will complain that Yggdrasil is too powerful, or something else.

 

[onedreamer]

PS. How about a discussion on writing giving a sage being game breaking in 1v1, and overpowered in >2 MP?

Not game breaking (game breaking means it gives you a SURE victory), but certainly imbalanced. And I would add to this the Great Engeneer + Guilds of Endeavor tech. I reported these long ago, as I think there shouldn't be a free GP and a wonder in the same tech, especially if the GP is an Engeneer or if it is connected to the Wonder itself (like Great Sage + Great Library).

 

[dscarron]

Agreed. For decent play purposes, the number of locations has to be balanced and evenly spread between the civs or the option needs to have an off button.
One or two of these locations found in the far wilderness MIGHT be okay if they were not quite as uber as what they are. 1-3 would be okay but +10 hammers with the mirror is nuts.

Now, if there is a Big downside... Say a potential demonic invasion that comes through the mirror every so often, then we are talking. But it would have to be HUGE. Random events of the Specials shutting down for 10 turns would be cool too. (And a sweet time for preemptive revenge...)

I held off Orthus at one point with JUST the mirror. I would make a warrior every turn, he would kill it; rinse and repeat. Eventually, I got lucky and he got a bad combat that weakened him enough to jump him. But he was all over my capital for about 40 turns and he had to have hit at least 150 exp.

 

[xienwolf]

Demons from the Mirror? Sun hurts Demons...

 

[GEFORCED]

500% is a big claim, it's more like x3 the production

a normal worker first start is
(13) turns, with Yggdrasil a worker is (5) turns

in a one on one situation its incredible for choking, as for the first 4 pop it only takes two turns to grow.

Let's imagine a one on one duel,with both players being on the exact same skill level, i would say the person who gets Yggdrasil has a 90%> chance of winning right of the bat.

Also let's not forget the super early free sage (which is for another post), Yggdrasil guarantees writing.

mirror is also pretty interesting, with godking its a 15 hammer tile, remember happyness is extremely important, and these 'super' tiles give 1-3 happy in cities near them. so not only are you getting a huge benfit from working them you are also able to work an extra tile.

Strategically its broken, infact its been knocked off the shelf and kicked around repeatively. Sure, it adds some 'fun' for singleplayer games, where the ai dont follow the game mathamatics. So who cares right? A harsh addition for multiplayer gaming.

Not difficult to fix though, simple option in staging to deactivate these 'super' tiles.