Musketmen? What for?

[Petros]

I think that Musketmen are completely useless in the game, as Grenadiers are a lot stronger (12 instead of 9 HP) with an inherent +50% attack bonus vs. Riflemen, and Musketmen are immediately succeeded by Grenadiers in the tech tree.

I think that Musketmen should be improved by adding them some inherent bonus such as +50% vs. Archery and Melee units, then they would be better against these units (9x1.5=13.5 HP) than Grenadiers with 12 HP. Another way to improve them would be to give them +1 HP and, say, +25% vs. Archery, Melee and Mounted units. This would pretty much resemble the 'stone-paper-scissors' system implemented to the units in the Ancient Era.

The same could be applied to the French Musketeers with 2 MP, then perhaps they would compare to the English Redcoats or the Russian Cossacks in usefulness. Ottoman Janissaries could also come with e.g. +1 more HP compared to the improved Musketmen. This way, the French and the Ottomans could have decent unique units in the game.

 

[mrchadt]

I always draft a lot of musketmen, rifles are quite a long way off. I've had good results with them, I don't build them though if I can help it. CR macemen seem a better choice to build, although muskets fare well vs crossbows.

 

[Petros]

Exactly, you don't build them, only draft them - but why doesn't the game allow you to draft Grenadiers instead?

Musketmen could also be the successors of Pikemen, serving as anti-Cavalry units, if they had an inherent +50% bonus vs. Mounted units. But having only 9 HP with no bonus at all makes them inferior to both Macemen and Grenadiers IMHO.

 

[mrchadt]

Well if you could draft such a good unit like a grenadier drafting would be better then it already is. 9 strengh isn't bad.

 

[Mutineer]

Draft is a huge advantage man. Muskets are allwasy a bulk of my army, you build maces/greens and you draft muskets.

 

[obsolete]

I really don't build muskets either. I find them weak, and the hammers are best used elsewhere. Most mine come from drafting as I don't have any choice, u can only draft what the system gives you.

LongBowmen are still better than muskets on defense though, due to the cost factor. At least you can stick a few drafted muskets into your offensive army to negate the macemen if u don't have anything to do so.

 

[DarkSchneider]

I agree that Muskets seem very useless. Many games I just skip building them entirely and go from maces directly to riflemen or grenadiers.

I've heard that the tech tree may be revised in BTS to make the rifles a little further in the future.

 

[Mehmed II]

Musketmen are more useful when defending.
When you have horses, you can build Knights, Knights are more powerful
than muskets at attacking.

 

[Bradlius]

Just following history, I would have given Muskets a little more strength, and given Grenadiers a bonus against Muskets. Muskets were an improvement over archery units, but they weren't very fast in firing. That's why cavalry was so critical an adjunct to a musket army up until the advent of the repeating rifle during the US Civil War. Napoleon's armies were all muskets, grenadiers, cannons and (non-gunpowder) cavalry.
By the way, where is the non-gunpowder cavalry anyway? I mean those dudes with swords that you see in the 18th century paintings. I always thought the US Unique Unit should have been Rifle Cavalry or something like that. No other nation really had those guys, but in Civ IV they seem to be the model for ALL Cavalry. And the Rifle Cavalry really only worked for about 50 years, between the US Civil War and WWI, but boy were they effective during that time. Teamed with Riflemen, they were pretty unstoppable.

 

[Gooblah]

Non-Gunpowder Cavalry= Knights. Though Military Tradition is not WAY too long from Guilds, so I usually skip Knights for Cavalry.

 

[Innawerkz]

Napoleon's armies were all muskets, grenadiers, cannons and (non-gunpowder) cavalry.

The cuirassier was employed by Napoleon & Frederick (among other notable nations) with great effect. It was also a gunpowder mounted unit, but only used wheel-lock pistols. Otherwise, it was very similar to a knight - using swords & lances.

Perfect bridge between the knight & cavalry and it is in the upcoming expansion!

 

[Bradlius]

The cuirassier was employed by Napoleon & Frederick (among other notable nations) with great effect. It was also a gunpowder mounted unit, but only used wheel-lock pistols. Otherwise, it was very similar to a knight - using swords & lances.

Perfect bridge between the knight & cavalry and it is in the upcoming expansion!

Yeah, cuirassier. That's it. Good to know that era/unit will be represented. But along the lines of the previous poster, I think it will have a very short shelf-life if it only comes between Knights and Cavalry. I too tend to skip Knights altogether if I can make the quick push for Cavalry.
Personally, I think Knights should start earlier and Cavalry much later, especially if they keep Cavalry as a US-type Cavalry. Maybe make it appear with Rifling instead of with Gunpowder. That way the Cuirassier will have its day in the sun, so to speak. Just my thoughts, and way off topic by now -- Sorry to the OP!

 

[InvisibleStalke]

Cavalry will require rifling in BTS, so you are dead on.

Muskets only for drafting - they are good defenders and serve as backup units to let the main attackers keep going. Janisseries and Musketmen excepted of course.

Potentially muskets can come a long way before grenadiers in the tech tree if you beeline liberalism and avoid machinery (which you will need to do if you want to lightbulb liberalism itself). If you are trying for a cavalry rush, then drafted muskets from nationalism is the defensive complement to your attacking cavalry.

 

[volfan37132]

I have seen a lot of complaints about musketmen on this site. I do
think macemen with city raider promotions are better for attacking
cities, but don't forget muskets ignore city walls and maces do not.
I find they do have a better balance between offense (mace) and
defensive / city garrison (Longbowmen). They can be used to
garrison, escort a stack of doom or be an extra healer. I"ll still
use trebs, catapults, maces, knights and pikemen, but those are
all specialty units. And yeah grenaiders are not far away.

 

[obsolete]

Musketmen do not ignore city culture any better than macemen. By the time musket men come around, that city culture will be above 50% anyhow.

 

[mrchadt]

If you draft 30 of them in 10 turns see how your power graph shoots up, the ai respects this. And they are very good against units without pinch, which the ai rarely has when you first get them.

edit:30 in 10 turns is a slight exaggeration of what I have done but it makes my point.

 

[CivCorpse]

Try playing on Marathon, muskets last much much longer. And a musketman with CGII is strength 13 I think. somewhere in that area. If you're a protective civ then they start with CGI so CGIII out of the box is strength 15.

 

[obsolete]

If only you could draft from large captured cities

 

[mrchadt]

You can draft from large captured cities if you capture all of that civs cities.

 

[thresh74]

One thing is that no medieval unit has build-in bonus against musketman (except pinch promotion). Once the AI send a pillaging stack consisting of crossbow and elephant, which is pretty smart for their bonus against every other units. My musketman took care of this stack without any casualty. It also makes musketman very good stack protector and city defender. Of course, the largest advantage is that they are draftable.