My 1.187 Challenge - steps 1, 2 and 3

[SilchasRuin]

I get really varied ones. in the game I won China was very weak, and Rome fell to barbarians before the European nations even arrived, and I think that Babylon held off Persia, so I had no real competition.

Depends on the game

 

[AgedOne]

I agree.
I have had 'normal' games where my main competition was China, and I have been beaten on population with very similar pop size to what I had in this game.
Then there have been other games where China was weak, and suffered at the hands of Japan - who became the largest pop.
One strange one I described earlier in this thread where the largest pop changed - at some points Persia and other times Rome!
All it points to is the need to keep your eye on the demographics screen, probably from turn 140 onwards - and definitely as you reach the turn 200 point.
It is good to have something to aim for - and I feel I am approaching the winning line when my population (as on F9/demographics) is well over 7000000.
But it is very varied!

 

[carzingan]

Babylon
This one was horrific, and I must have tried 40-50 starts before I finally got it. The new research rates were the trouble, and meant that I was always struggling to get the Oracle, and take Monarchy from it for maximum growth, in enough time to grow before my population was measured at turn 84. When I could achieve that, my culture was always short of India (or somebody) and there was nothing I could do about it since I wasn't able to run artists, as I was still researching Code of Laws. I ought to mention that I was trying the peaceful approach, and also occasionally the attack on Delhi. I was getting better results from the peaceful approach ... marginally...
Finally got there - with a large slice of luck - and the strategy was this:
Warriors until size 2 and switched to Worker. Then back to warrior - granary - library.
Researched Pottery - Writing - Myst - Masonry - Medi - Priest.
Worker cottaged floodplain first (not stone!) then quarried the stone and finally the marble.
After library I built Stonehenge (using quarry speed) and then Oracle. It meant starting the Oracle 3 turns after I got Priesthood, which worried me, but it worked out alright with the Oracle completing at turn 75.
I waited until both wonders were complete before switching civics to HR and CS. I would have liked CS earlier but couldn't afford the anarchy.
Then maxed growth until turn 84, helped by Animal Husbandry allowing sheep health improvement. Reached size 7, which I didn't think would be enough, but it was. Lucky!
After that, used CS to run artists and count down to the Gt person popping. The odds were more than 60:40 in favour of getting a Gt Prophet, but when turn 94 came it was a Gt Artist and I was able to blow my culture score over 4500 and achieve another part of the UVC.
Quite a subdued finish, as I calmly researched to the end of CoL, winning on turn 103.
Though in the meantime I completed the Pyramids, which I was only building to bring in a bit of cash when I failed , and also gained the nearby barbarian city, and Jerusalem - presented to me by Cyrus (who had killed me in so many earlier attempts).

1. How come could you accomplish cultural VC in turn 94, as you have to have it completed in turn 84, along with population?
2. I played this game tens of times and still can't beat it. Once I fail to get Writing first, or If I'm lucky to get it, I almost always fail in culture. I almost ALWAYS can build Stonehenge, The Oracle, The Pyramids and even can get to fourth wonder, some Greek wonder. And I never get the biggest culture. I won this point only once, when I got Mathematics from goodie hut and got to found Confucianism.
3. I always win population VC, having only 7 pop in Babylon.
4. Still don't know what to do about that culture thingy Is switching to CS essential to winning this part?

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Strictly speaking, the only wonder you need is Stonehenge.
You need to run as many artists in Babylon after Stonehenge is built, but not enough to starve it from growing slowly. Once you get a great artist and get 4000 culture, turn off the artists and let Babylon grow.

 

[AgedOne]

1. How come could you accomplish cultural VC in turn 94, as you have to have it completed in turn 84, along with population?
2. I played this game tens of times and still can't beat it. Once I fail to get Writing first, or If I'm lucky to get it, I almost always fail in culture. I almost ALWAYS can build Stonehenge, The Oracle, The Pyramids and even can get to fourth wonder, some Greek wonder. And I never get the biggest culture. I won this point only once, when I got Mathematics from goodie hut and got to found Confucianism.
3. I always win population VC, having only 7 pop in Babylon.
4. Still don't know what to do about that culture thingy Is switching to CS essential to winning this part?

I agree that this one is an absolute swine! The very short timeframe is what kills it for me. You have to do so many things in a small number of turns, some of which seem to be heading in different directions to each other.

The culture does come on turn 94. Ten turns after the population.
Here's the screenshot:


Having played it many many times myself before being able to put it aside, I feel that switching to CS after having built Stonehenge is a key to winning this one. If you can pop a Gt Artist then all of your culture worries are over, and you don't need to have bothered with the Pyramids.
I reached the same point as you, where I was confident (after a lot of refining my strategy in tiny ways) of getting the top pop, but was always losing out on culture.
I tried violence in some attempts - working on the suggestions I had read that destroying India's game would allow me a better chance of winning on culture. Never worked.

Having put it behind me now, I can look back on it and think that there isn't a guaranteed winning strategy. Or, rather, there may be a best strategy but you will not win every time with it.

In the end, I won as I outlined in that post. I feel that the key points were:

• Cottage the floodplains, quarry the stone and then the marble
• Get Stonehenge
• Oracle after Stonehenge and take Monarchy from it
• Switch to Hereditary Rule and Caste System
• Max your growth - Use the wheat and then the sheep to raise health cap
  - Put warriors in city and with HR this raises your happiness cap
• At size 6 or 7 run Artists to hopefully pop that Gt Artist in time
• Keep from settling Cyrus' lands, with luck he won't kill you!

 

[carzingan]

Hmmm, you're confusing something, or we're playing different mods. I always have culture result on turn 86 and POP result ten turns after.
I also noticed, that in some games, researching goes faster than in other tries. Sometimes it takes 16 turns for Writing (and you fail) or it may take as less as 13 or 14, and you are probable to win Writing.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Actually, I misspoke: if you run artists, use your great artist for bulbing Monarchy. Use the Oracle for Code of Laws.
(Remember artists give culture--nothing beats that, not even Chinese/Indian religions or Egyptian wonders)

Violence against India is to deter their population growth, not to defeat their culture.

 

[AgedOne]

Hmmm, you're confusing something, or we're playing different mods. I always have culture result on turn 86 and POP result ten turns after.
I also noticed, that in some games, researching goes faster than in other tries. Sometimes it takes 16 turns for Writing (and you fail) or it may take as less as 13 or 14, and you are probable to win Writing.

Well, we are all looking at the main Rhye's and Fall of Civilization mod, patch version 1.187 (as it says in the title). We are playing at Monarch level.
Everything about our one says population on 84, culture on 94. Civilopedia, F8 Victory screen, and the way the game plays in practice.
You may be playing a different game from the rest of us!

The research speed from the start (assuming you always settle on the launch tile) depends on which tile your citizens are working. For the same tile worked, it is a constant.

Having said that, you cannot guarantee to beat China to Writing if they beeline it (as they do sometimes). After all, they research at Noble rates while you are at Monarch.

 

[carzingan]

^^
I'm gonna try this thing with CS and GAs, and also make a screenshot so you can see that culture result is on turn 86. I'm playing BTS 1.187.

EDIT:

 

[AgedOne]

^^
I'm gonna try this thing with CS and GAs, and also make a screenshot so you can see that culture result is on turn 86. I'm playing BTS 1.187.

<picture>

carzingan.
I can see from the screenshot that you are playing a version that definitely requires completion of both VCs on turn 86.
I don't think that is version 1.187. I have just checked in the python code, and 1.187 says that Babylonia's VCs finish on different turns:

Spoiler :

elif (iPlayer == iBabylonia):
if (pBabylonia.isAlive()):
if (iGameTurn == i850BC):
bestCity = self.calculateTopCityPopulation(76, 40)
if (bestCity != -1):
print ("bestCity.getOwner()", bestCity.getOwner())
if (bestCity.getOwner() == iBabylonia and bestCity.getX() == 76 and bestCity.getY() == 40):
self.setGoal(iBabylonia, 1, 1)
else:
self.setGoal(iBabylonia, 1, 0)
else:
self.setGoal(iBabylonia, 1, 0)
if (iGameTurn == i700BC):
bestCity = self.calculateTopCityCulture(76, 40)
if (bestCity != -1):
print ("bestCity.getOwner()", bestCity.getOwner())
if (bestCity.getOwner() == iBabylonia and bestCity.getX() == 76 and bestCity.getY() == 40):
self.setGoal(iBabylonia, 2, 1)
else:
self.setGoal(iBabylonia, 2, 0)
else:
self.setGoal(iBabylonia, 2, 0)

850BC for population, and 700BC for culture.
Also from the python code, are these constants which tell us the turn numbers:
i850BC = 84
i700BC = 94

However, if I look at the original Rhye's and Fall mod that shipped with BTS, I see this code instead:

Spoiler :

elif (iPlayer == iBabylonia):
if (pBabylonia.isAlive()):
if (iGameTurn == i700BC):
bestCity = self.calculateTopCityPopulation(76, 40)
if (bestCity != -1):
print ("bestCity.getOwner()", bestCity.getOwner())
if (bestCity.getOwner() == iBabylonia and bestCity.getX() == 76 and bestCity.getY() == 40):
self.setGoal(iBabylonia, 2, 1)
else:
self.setGoal(iBabylonia, 2, 0)
else:
self.setGoal(iBabylonia, 2, 0)

bestCity = self.calculateTopCityCulture(76, 40)
if (bestCity != -1):
print ("bestCity.getOwner()", bestCity.getOwner())
if (bestCity.getOwner() == iBabylonia and bestCity.getX() == 76 and bestCity.getY() == 40):
self.setGoal(iBabylonia, 1, 1)
else:
self.setGoal(iBabylonia, 1, 0)
else:
self.setGoal(iBabylonia, 1, 0)

Here it is checking for both VCs at 700BC.
The constants for the original version show:
i700BC = 86


So unfortunately it looks like you are running the old version of the mod (even if you have 1.187 installed on your PC).

 

[carzingan]

So unfortunately it looks like you are running the old version of the mod (even if you have 1.187 installed on your PC).

Yup, this looks strange.
My BTS: 3.19 (last updated 4-30-2009)
RFC: BTS v.1.187.

Nevertheless, I've tried wth switching to CS, but instead of getting GA, GP popped up and I couldn't spread my culture.

EDIT: OK, I downloaded the newest version of RFC, and now it's turn 84 and 96.

 

[AgedOne]

Yup, this looks strange.
My BTS: 3.19 (last updated 4-30-2009)
RFC: BTS v.1.187.

Have you got this configuration in your C:\Program Files\Firaxis Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Beyond the Sword\Mods folder?

(Ignoring the 'Original Rhye's and Fall...' folder which is just where I moved the original one.)

And in the Rhye's and Fall of Civilization folder does it look like this:


And is this the place where you unzipped your download?
(Sorry - just trying a spot of amateur debugging)

Nevertheless, I've tried wth switching to CS, but instead of getting GA, GP popped up and I couldn't spread my culture.

I know that feeling! I remember I was lucky the time I succeeded. The chances were something like 2:1 against me getting the Gt A that I needed. I think I got really lucky in one of my earlier Egypt attempts, where you also need a big culture boost. (However, I shouldn't forget the many times that I was unlucky before I got the Gt A I was looking for)





* Edit * I could have saved myself the effort. You've succeeded in the meantime

 

[carzingan]

^^
I've also tried swithing different tiles in Babylon for production to get writing faster, but with different configurations, it didn't change. Maybe getting worker as early as possible and hooking up a cottage is essential? Generally, I always go with 2 warriors, then worker, because sometimes Urshalim or Sur sends warrior towards my unprotected capital (the only warrior wanders around for goodie huts) and captures my city. I think, this will need more than several attempts, having getting writing first, not getting Persia at war with me, and have luck with getting GA popped up instead of GP.

 

[SilchasRuin]

The only way you wouldn't get writing first is if you're not going for it strait off the bat. first two techs are pottery -> writing, that way, you'll get it every time, and stick to working the flood plain, don't go for the wooded hill unless you desperately need to get a wonder. Also, if you fail at getting GA, one trick I use is to wait until my food bar is almost full, then switch every citizen to artists for the few turns it takes to eat up all the food there, and switch them off just before I'm about to lose the population, I usually do that when there's around 5-10 turns till next GP, you can usually get it faster and the GA likelihood increases.

Also, the last Babylon i won as (on Monarch), the Persians didn't bother me, I gave them the city and just sat there for around 10 turns until the final culture deadline for the win (having popped a GA), just OB with them and they'll wander around attacking Jerusalem and the barb cities in turkey, I never even got beyond warriors.

 

[carzingan]

^^
Ik dude, I always beeline for writing at the begging, but it doesn't work everytime, it happens that China (playing on Noble) beats you.
Persians are another issue: Shushan always flips to me and I raze it upon geeting it. When Persia appears, for most times they are peaceful with me at the start (but not always), but ALWAYS after some 10 or more turns declare on me. But usually they send some Immortals and Chariots and send them to the tile S of Copper and just sit there and do nothing - this way, if you have enought units in your capital, you can rush to their capital and destroy them.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Babylon, the mighty city, should not build workers.
A conquered Shush should.
Give Shush to the Persians. Build lots of archers and nobody will bother you.

 

[SilchasRuin]

hmm... I've never had china beat me to writing, but if it happens then it happens. I never raze Shushan, I use it to build workers and warriors before it flips, also, since you give it to them, it means you no longer have territory in their flip zone so they're less likely to attack you

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Don't wait for Shush to flip. Conquer it from the start--build several warriors, hire mercenaries using cash from huts, whatever you need to do. Just don't let Babylon's population stagnate initially (because that's valuable time wasted). When you are up to pop 5-6, you can start using some of the production (tree hill up north which doesn't have any food) to build your wonders quickly.

 

[AgedOne]

I have had China beat me to Writing, but it is rare (very rare - probably only happened once in my 40-odd starts) as long as you are going Pottery - Writing at full speed.

In my later attempts I was building 1 warrior, and then starting a second, but the instant my city grew to size 2 I was switching to a worker. This way I got an early worker, plus a warrior to go hut-popping while my initial warrior stayed home.
It is often essential to leave a warrior home, as the Independents have a high chance of starting at war with you. They will become peaceful in a few turns - but not if you leave your city empty. The dangerous one is Jerusalem, who will often send a warrior to take your empty city.

Persia are a strange one! Sometimes they arrive at war with you. Sometimes they are peaceful for a while and then kill you. Sometimes they remain peaceful. In my experiences, if they are at war with you, you have no hope. They will kill you. I never saw any of these 'phoney wars' where they stand there looking at you.
In my final game, they were so happy with me they were presenting me with captured cities before the end!!

 

[SilchasRuin]

I think I see the problem, I have a mac, so I'm stuck with 1.185, so I never start our at war with any of the ind. cities or Persia, so I do what AgedOne does, but send my second warrior (after the worker) to the Euro huts, and build a third straight after to defend when hattusas turns up, although that is usually dealt with by the ind.