My 1st Impression...kinda

[rocklikeafool]

So, as I like the DE, what would be the equivalent for that? (Of course, it would have to do with Khaine, right?) I like what you say bout the Choas, Empire, and Brettonians, by the way. But I mainly play DEs, so I like how those things sound but til the mod is finished , I could care less except it sounds cool.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

regarding the dark elves take on the elven gods i expect their temple to khaine would involve the sacrificing of slave to produce happyness and culture, in addition to the normal production from slave sacrifices. i would also like for a UB of them to be the 'Cauldron of Blood', from the warhammer tabletop.

the cauldron could only be built by a witchelf of a certain level when 3 temples of khaine have been built. all witchelves built in a city with the cauldron gain the 'empowered' promotion. the emporwered promotion varies from level 1 (+10% strength) to level 5 (+50% strength). the promotion that is granted increases according to the ammount of slaves that are sacrificed in that city. there is a mechanic similar to this in Fall further where a unit (the cualli shade) can kill another unit to gain an empowered promotion. alternatively, a unit may be sacrificed in a city with the cauldron to add his promotions to one witchelf that is present in the city (borrowing the graft flesh spell from FfH). witchelves would obviously be a national unit in this case, perhaps they could also be the priest replacement for the elvengods religion in darkelf lands.

thats just a rough idea with little thought gone into it. so its also subject to change, especially seeing as i havent talked to anyone else about that idea yet

 

[rocklikeafool]

Airight. Sounds cool, man. Will there be any specific units comin from the DEs' worship of Khaine or jus that benefit from the slave sacrifice?

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

probably will make witchelves a elvengods only unit, meaning darkelves can only build witchelves when they have the elven gods as their state religion. other than that no, i doubt it. the elvene gods should have less special crap than the other religions because its an earlyer religion.

 

[rocklikeafool]

Ok, since they have less crap, what compensates for that? How would you balance that so the DEs, HEs, and WEs would have something that allows them to have as much crap as, say Chaos or Salvation?

 

[kairob]

Well they get the religion very early, early culture and happiness allowing fast early growth and expansion. Chaos should rock completely when it comes to warfare, but if you were to compare the amount of gold and research they and the Dark Elves get you should find a huge difference. Of course we are still working on making this happen and be balanced.

Dont worry, no civ will be sold out or end up really crappy compaired to the others.

 

[rocklikeafool]

Ok. But it would be nice if there was one unit besides Witchelves that the DEs got for a religious UU. Maybe a melee unit that got better armor and attack as new ages come. Cuz then that would allow them to have unit that starts out as powerful as most Dark Ages units and gets as powerful as most Age of Magic, Age of Discovery, and Mechanical Age units. IMHO, it should be something that relies heavily on Khaine and your standin with Khaine for its melee power and has no magic, jus a pure melee unit.
I don't know. I look to be one of the few that is pushin for DEs in this specific case. Also, the HEs and WEs should have similar unit for their favorite god/goddess.
By the way, what is the religion in this game based off of? Is it from D&D or another source?

 

[Ploeperpengel]

Ok. But it would be nice if there was one unit besides Witchelves that the DEs got for a religious UU. Maybe a melee unit that got better armor and attack as new ages come. Cuz then that would allow them to have unit that starts out as powerful as most Dark Ages units and gets as powerful as most Age of Magic, Age of Discovery, and Mechanical Age units. IMHO, it should be something that relies heavily on Khaine and your standin with Khaine for its melee power and has no magic, jus a pure melee unit.
I don't know. I look to be one of the few that is pushin for DEs in this specific case. Also, the HEs and WEs should have similar unit for their favorite god/goddess.

Darkelves get Witchelves and Assassins(Disciples of Khaine). Highelves get Swordmasters of Hoeth.

By the way, what is the religion in this game based off of? Is it from D&D or another source?

Warhammer

 

[rocklikeafool]

Darkelves get Witchelves and Assassins(Disciples of Khaine). Highelves get Swordmasters of Hoeth.

Ok, that was what I was lookin for, Assassins. What would their strength and movement be? Do they have any special promotions or anythin like that?

 

[Ploeperpengel]

Ok, that was what I was lookin for, Assassins. What would their strength and movement be? Do they have any special promotions or anythin like that?

This is work in progress can't tell you exactly now.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

Ok, that was what I was lookin for, Assassins. What would their strength and movement be? Do they have any special promotions or anythin like that?

i understand that your eager to find out about how everything will work exactly, but im afraid we just dont have completely reliable answers at the moment. so little questions like 'what is their strength and movement' is completely irrevelivent at the moment as were working on the bigger things.

 

[rocklikeafool]

I spose, man. Can't wait to see it in action. Can we expect it in Kinstrife?

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

most likely, seeing as kinstrife will have the complete dark and highelf civs

 

[rocklikeafool]

Good. Cool. So, I'll obviously have to wait for that. (THE ANTICIPATION!)

 

[deadliver]

Regarding the above posts....
Ploeper and Psychic:

Guys this is a long post and I won't blame you if you quit halfway through.

Humans
I think his point about the multitude of human empires may be a good point. After all the Estalians, Bretonnians and Empire are essentially the same (taken out of a tabletop context of course, where the Bretonnians are a Feudal chivalrous army while the Empire plays like a renaissance Holy Roman Empire army, while the Estalians are very similar to the Bretonnians but also feature mounted musketeers).

Do you think it would be a good idea instead to represent these three different groups with National Wonders? Perhaps a sort of Ethnic Wonder that represents each group of humans?There is a limit of NW in your mod right? Could NW be used to allow the production of certain units? Could the Estalian NW be built in more than one city?

My reasoning is that these three groups are really the same with just different clothing. Sure the Bretonnians do not use as much siege weaponry and rely on 10 different types of knights, while the Empire uses more tech while the Estalians are a mix of both. Here is what I am thinking...

The civ could build generic horsemen and footsoldiers such as infantry, archers and xbowmen. To represent the specialness and elite status of Knights, gunpowder and the Estalian units (perhaps make them cuirassiers or something) a NW must be built before these units could be produced?

I love this mod because I am a big Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay gamer/GM but perhaps it would be easier on you guys if you merged the Old World humans (the europeans) into one or two civs instead...

OR

How about a guild system for each human group and the guild allows the production of units. I think this is a realistic approach to the humies and that part of the world is really the only part where so many different groups are living next to and with each other. At worst it would consist of 3 "guilds":
Estalian, Bretonnian and Imperial humans.

BTW do not think I have forgotten the Tileans, but this group is seperated geographically from the others by mountains, skaven and a *&)! load of greenskins.

Chaos

The Kurgan, as I discussed with Psychic in an earlier post (under his poll for districts) I think would be better off being portrayed as Strong attackers but low quality defenders (perhaps +1 A/-1D or a percentage penalty with X2%attack and -X% defense if possible). Even if you do not swipe the Warrens from FFH (the coolest thing I have seen since the clone labs in Red Alert 2) I think that this tweak would do enough to differentiate the Kurgies from the other chaos civs. Perhaps the issue of one civ one religion could also be dealt with by using guilds. I am unfamiliar with just how flexible the modding is for this game. Another alternative would be to use NW to represent shrines for each of the gods. According to the latest versions of Chaos the various marauder groups (living at the poles) do sometimes have patron deities but these groups hardly constitute a civilization (a village of 200 or what have you). Most of them worship chaos undivided which would leave open the possibility for not specializing in any one chaos god but instead being able to sample the benefits of all of them. Come to think of it, perhaps that could be the advantage the Kurgan have... that they do not need to choose one specific deity but can instead build all of the various units...of course you would probably need to balance that out by barring them from building the top tier versions of each of these chaos units?

The beastmen should be given tough low level units but no access to the higher tier units. Instead they should be able to get all the nasty units like Minotaurs and well other Beasts of Chaos.

On the topic of choosing religions, would there be a way to allow a chaos player to choose whether or not they want to specialize in one deity or chaos undivided? I look forward to discussing this further.


p.s. GW is one of the laziest companies out there, coupled with the horrible licensing deal they made for the Lord of the Rings franchise it does not surprise they have not produced anything NEW for Estalian, Araby, Nippon, Norsca (which are now chaos marauders like your mod) and Cathay. BTW all of these groups did have minis produced in the past so they do deserve a place in your mod.

Ploeper, sorry I did not see your assertion about not dropping any civs from the MOD so please do not think I am trying to give you a hard time!!! Now, get back to work! *WHIP WHIP*

 

[Masada]

Old World Humans

I dont think merging them is a viable option... they may be similar but you can present exactly the same arguement about HE and DE... one just has more spikes than the other. The same thing about Orcs and Goblins they're all green just one group is smaller and ones larger. The same about Dwarves one has spikes and the other doesnt etc.

Lets not get onto what GW has done in the past... Chaos Dwarves *cries* and Squats *not really crying but they were entertaining *

 

[deadliver]

Dark Elves and High Elves are completely opposite. One is debauched and heinously evil the other are essentially vulcans with attitude. Besides I retracted my post (grrr after i wrote it all out) when I saw Ploeper's post about not taking out civs. He's the man with the plan and I respect that.

Also Goblins and Orcs are very different from each other as well. Orcs focus almost completely on muscle with one exception who is an Orc who has been possessed by one of his wargear items. Goblins are more techonologically inclinedthrough being shamans. , though not to the extent that they do in Warcraft. Also Goblins more or less have a monopoly on shamans both in the game and the background. Unlike 40k Gobbos (gretchen) the ones in Warhammer subtly manipulate the Orcs. That being said I think a case can be made for Orcs being able to build gobbo units and vice versa, same with the human groups.

For example the Kislevites have a local chapter of the Knight's Panther and also get along famously with the White Wolves. The Estalians do their own thing and have their own Knightly Order which is on par with both the Imperial and Bretonnian knights. An edition or two ago you could even pick up them in the Empire army as another knight unit with their own special abilities. Estalians also use firearms more than the Bretonnians but are not quite as advanced as the Empire (no war wagon, no organ guns)

Finally, my point about GW laziness was in response to the second post where it was pointed out that GW has "distanced themselves from these races", my point was that these groups have all had background written about them, miniatures produced and in most cases had game rules, I think back in 3rd edition.

 

[rocklikeafool]

Dark Elves and High Elves are completely opposite. One is debauched and heinously evil the other are essentially vulcans with attitude.

I would also like to point out that the HEs are also very big on colonies. If you have read any of their history, at one time, they had colonies on every continent in the Warhammer world.

Orcs focus almost completely on muscle with one exception who is an Orc who has been possessed by one of his wargear items. Goblins are more techonologically inclined through being shamans, though not to the extent that they do in Warcraft. Unlike 40k Gobbos (gretchen) the ones in Warhammer subtly manipulate the Orcs. That being said I think a case can be made for Orcs being able to build gobbo units and vice versa, same with the human groups.

I agree completely, especially since when visitin the Warhammer official game site (which I know this mod is based off of), there was some info about how Malekith got two leaders of a tribe of greenskins called the "Bloody Sun Boyz" to start a Waghhh! against the Dwarves and those leaders started an all-out Waghhh! involving most of the greenskins. One of the leaders was a Orc named Grumlok and the other was a Goblin shaman named Gazbag. These two co-operated to rule their tribe and start the Waghhh!, with Grumlok providin the muscle and physical punishments and Gazbag bein the brains and providin any rare magical punishments. This is a prime example of Goblins and Orcs working together and shows that the Goblins are usually the manipulators with brains. So, I agree wholeheartedly with Deadliver on this one.

For example, the Kislevites have a local chapter of the Knight's Panther and also get along famously with the White Wolves. An addition or two ago you could even pick up them in the Empire army as another knight unit with their own special abilities.

Question, Deadliver (or anyone else who knows the answer); who are the White Wolves? Obviously, there are near Kislev, since they have the Kislevite Knight's Panther. What do they stand for, and what do they do?

Secondly, I do agree that the Empire should have another knight unit. Also, I think you should replace the Choas Knight that is currently Kislev's knight with a Knight's Panter unit please.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

now this post is even longer due to the quotes so ive wrapped it in spoilers

Spoiler :

Humans
I think his point about the multitude of human empires may be a good point. After all the Estalians, Bretonnians and Empire are essentially the same (taken out of a tabletop context of course, where the Bretonnians are a Feudal chivalrous army while the Empire plays like a renaissance Holy Roman Empire army, while the Estalians are very similar to the Bretonnians but also feature mounted musketeers).

Do you think it would be a good idea instead to represent these three different groups with National Wonders? Perhaps a sort of Ethnic Wonder that represents each group of humans?There is a limit of NW in your mod right? Could NW be used to allow the production of certain units? Could the Estalian NW be built in more than one city?

My reasoning is that these three groups are really the same with just different clothing. Sure the Bretonnians do not use as much siege weaponry and rely on 10 different types of knights, while the Empire uses more tech while the Estalians are a mix of both. Here is what I am thinking...

The civ could build generic horsemen and footsoldiers such as infantry, archers and xbowmen. To represent the specialness and elite status of Knights, gunpowder and the Estalian units (perhaps make them cuirassiers or something) a NW must be built before these units could be produced?

I love this mod because I am a big Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay gamer/GM but perhaps it would be easier on you guys if you merged the Old World humans (the europeans) into one or two civs instead...

OR

How about a guild system for each human group and the guild allows the production of units. I think this is a realistic approach to the humies and that part of the world is really the only part where so many different groups are living next to and with each other. At worst it would consist of 3 "guilds":
Estalian, Bretonnian and Imperial humans.

BTW do not think I have forgotten the Tileans, but this group is seperated geographically from the others by mountains, skaven and a *&)! load of greenskins.

.....

Ploeper, sorry I did not see your assertion about not dropping any civs from the MOD so please do not think I am trying to give you a hard time!!! Now, get back to work! *WHIP WHIP*

Im afraid to say that i am STRONGLY againt this kind of thing. mainly because it detracts from the diversity of the mod (or diversity to come). i understand its a suggestion to help us as modders, and i really appreciate the thought, but i dont think its a big deal having an extra civ. besides, Brettoninans are in NO WAY similar to the empire besides race. thats like saying that the french are the same as the Germans (which would probably lead to another world war).

and like the last line of your quote says, were not dropping or merging any civs

I dont think merging them is a viable option... they may be similar but you can present exactly the same arguement about HE and DE... one just has more spikes than the other. The same thing about Orcs and Goblins they're all green just one group is smaller and ones larger. The same about Dwarves one has spikes and the other doesnt etc.

Lets not get onto what GW has done in the past... Chaos Dwarves *cries* and Squats *not really crying but they were entertaining *

i have to agree with masada on this.

The Kurgan, as I discussed with Psychic in an earlier post (under his poll for districts) I think would be better off being portrayed as Strong attackers but low quality defenders (perhaps +1 A/-1D or a percentage penalty with X2%attack and -X% defense if possible). Even if you do not swipe the Warrens from FFH (the coolest thing I have seen since the clone labs in Red Alert 2) I think that this tweak would do enough to differentiate the Kurgies from the other chaos civs. Perhaps the issue of one civ one religion could also be dealt with by using guilds. I am unfamiliar with just how flexible the modding is for this game. Another alternative would be to use NW to represent shrines for each of the gods. According to the latest versions of Chaos the various marauder groups (living at the poles) do sometimes have patron deities but these groups hardly constitute a civilization (a village of 200 or what have you). Most of them worship chaos undivided which would leave open the possibility for not specializing in any one chaos god but instead being able to sample the benefits of all of them. Come to think of it, perhaps that could be the advantage the Kurgan have... that they do not need to choose one specific deity but can instead build all of the various units...of course you would probably need to balance that out by barring them from building the top tier versions of each of these chaos units?

Now this i can agree with theres a lot of talk going on about the 'chaos problem' in the team forums, and well be picking up on ideas put out here, so keep throwing them out!

For example the Kislevites have a local chapter of the Knight's Panther and also get along famously with the White Wolves. The Estalians do their own thing and have their own Knightly Order which is on par with both the Imperial and Bretonnian knights. An edition or two ago you could even pick up them in the Empire army as another knight unit with their own special abilities. Estalians also use firearms more than the Bretonnians but are not quite as advanced as the Empire (no war wagon, no organ guns)

on the note of the knightly orders (knights panther ,white wolves etc) i think that the best way to represent these is through a world wonder which automatically spawns these knights. these wonders could only be avaliable to old world human civilizations.

 

[deadliver]

Okay first of all you know that merging Dark Elves and High Elves even to make a
point makes no sense whatsoever because one is evil and the other are not. In the RPG they are actually most likely to be Lawful and then Good, While Dark Elves are Evil or Chaotic (which by the way surprised me when I could not convert to Corruption when playing Morathi who is a champion of Slaanesh) . Considering the fact the High Elves once ruled an empire it makes perfect sense that they had settlements beyond Ulthuan (their main island). Also technically the outlying settlements usually had Sea Elves which are another group of elves. The Inner part of the Island are High Elves and the outer areas mostly had Sea Elves, also known as Elves who had to work for a living and were looked down upon BUT also tougher because they had to bear the brunt of the Norse attacks.

White Wolves are the Knights of Ulric, the God of Winter and Wolves. Ulric worshippers and Sigmar worshippers despise each other because the Ulricans believe that Sigmar is an upstart god as opposed to Ulric and the other human deities such as Shallya (healing), Morr (death), Taal (Druids), Rhya (Planet), and Myrmidia are all ancient and related to each other as brothers and nieces and etc. Think of beserkers armed with big hammers wearing full plate.