[BTS] My 2nd Immortal Game With Saladin (Immortal Game #2)

[CGQ]

After a frustrating last game, I decided to put it on hold and start fresh so I can learn and reinforce concepts in the early game.

Spoiler The 4000 BC Start :

Game settings:

Leader: Random
Immortal
Fractal
Standard Size
Normal Speed
Arid Climate (Randomly Chosen)
Medium Sea Level
7 AI like normal instead of 8
Hut & Events turned off

I never played a game with him before? Is he any good?

The Start:

Again, nothing really special, just plains cow, and sugar. At least we have some floodplains but this time I'm not financial so there's not a lot to take advantage of. Where do I move the warrior? Should I SIP here?

 

[5tephen]

I'm not the best player by a long shot so better advice may be forthcoming.

Looks like moving north would lead to jungle so wouldn't do that. Unfortunately the south isn't possible to reveal much of due to where warrior starts.

SIP isn't a great start but has what looks to be 5 floodplains so good in the long-term. If SIP I'd go hunting ->AH. Improve the cows and settler at size 2 unless new information is revealed by settling.

I'd move the warrior 1S to reveal the tile 2S1W of settler. If my fog gazing is accurate and you have floodplains in the west (which count for 0.5 of a resource, you've already revealed your 4 BFC resources) but on the off chance this tile was wet corn or grassland pig I'd move the settler to the south-east plains hill.

 

[CGQ]

I'm not the best player by a long shot so better advice may be forthcoming.

Looks like moving north would lead to jungle so wouldn't do that. Unfortunately the south isn't possible to reveal much of due to where warrior starts.

SIP isn't a great start but has what looks to be 5 floodplains so good in the long-term. If SIP I'd go hunting ->AH. Improve the cows and settler at size 2 unless new information is revealed by settling.

I'd move the warrior 1S to reveal the tile 2S1W of settler. If my fog gazing is accurate and you have floodplains in the west (which count for 0.5 of a resource, you've already revealed your 4 BFC resources) but on the off chance this tile was wet corn or grassland pig I'd move the settler to the south-east plains hill.

Spoiler First 4 Turns :

Moving warrior south revealed nothing of interest so I decided to SIP:

As 5tephen pointed out, there are 2 more floodplains to the west. I also another source of sugar, which isn't great until calendar. Also elephants to the north of the river, which means early happiness since it's connected to the river:

Turn 4, warrior reveals stone:

Now teching hunting>AH makes perfect sense so I can build a 2nd city up the river depending whether I find food or not and I can hook up the elephants for an instant boost as well as from instant trade route.

 

[sampsa]

Did you consider 1E? Even with the loss of forest and 2 fps I'd be tempted. It also makes sharing the fps easy. I don't like hunting, agri is more useful. Ivory is jungled.

 

[Fippy]

Yup you need Agri.
1t farm 1w, then on sugar first (less worker time).
I might ignore AH for some time here, and use whips (BW)..good amount of forests too.

Jungled Jumbos are fine Sampsa, can still be improved (bad tile but happy).
But hunting can wait. This start screams for BW.
Pottery also good..but i would be more concerned with first.

 

[sampsa]

Jungled Jumbos are fine Sampsa, can still be improved (bad tile but happy).

Yeh they are fine, but not really a reason to go hunting instead of agri. Agree that BW is the most important thing.

 

[lymond]

Now teching hunting>AH makes perfect sense so I can build a 2nd city up the river depending whether I find food or not and I can hook up the elephants for an instant boost as well as from instant trade route.

Yeah nothing about this statement makes perfect sense to me at all, except maybe the trade route concept. You are looking for food primarily and generally avoiding jungle. Although if there is a workable food resource near the ivory, then settling on the ivory itself may not be a bad idea. But based on what I see so far that area would not be a priority and certainly no justification for going Hunting here.
AG allows you to immediately increase the food output of this food poor city.

note: just sayin' but this is a really bad map. also, any particular reason you chose arid setting?

 

[CGQ]

Did you consider 1E? Even with the loss of forest and 2 fps I'd be tempted. It also makes sharing the fps easy. I don't like hunting, agri is more useful. Ivory is jungled.

Yup you need Agri.
1t farm 1w, then on sugar first (less worker time).

I don't get it, do you mean build a farm in 1 turn on FP?

Spoiler To Turn 13 :

I took Fippy's suggestion and settled 1E for 12 turn worker. I met Sury on turn 9:

Next turn I meet Hatchy:

As suggested I'm going Agri-Mining-BW this time:

I meet Zara on Turn 10 too, just as I got agriculture:

And one turn after...Cathy, we meet again:

Well at least we have more friendly AI's this time around (I put EP on Khmer)

Turn 13, worker is out. What do I do with him? Farm the sugar or the FP?

 

[Fippy]

Well nope but in your SIP game before replay you could have put 1t into a fp farm - cancel worker action - and improve sugar first.
Common play to not waste worker turns while they move.
Settling on PH was not my suggestion
Could be weaker here since you have a less optimal worker path..but it's close, no clear winner.

 

[lymond]

I don't get it, do you mean build a farm in 1 turn on FP?

The idea here, assuming your original SIP settle, is to use the Worker 1/2 move to put a turn into a farm on the fp, then complete the farm on sugar. I thought this a concept I'd explain to you before at some point. Makes the most of worker turns and movement.

always look for ops to use worker moves to part improve tiles if the target tile is 2 tiles away. (or even in cases where 3 tiles away but a hill or forest)....examples

A...B...C (B and C[target] are flat/unforested) - worker puts 1t of improvement on tile B>cancels action > improves tile C

A...B..C..D (B an C are flat/unforested and D[target] is hill or forest or deadstop tile) ...worker puts 1t into improvement on tile B > cancels action > then steps onto D

 

[sampsa]

As it is, yes farm fps until 1T away from BW, then move to forest to chop. No reason to farm sugar, it's not riverside so 1 less.

2nd city on sugar I guess, even if that doesn't claim ivory to the 1st ring.

 

[CGQ]

As it is, yes farm fps until 1T away from BW, then move to forest to chop. No reason to farm sugar, it's not riverside so 1 less.

2nd city on sugar I guess, even if that doesn't claim ivory to the 1st ring.

Spoiler To Turn 21 :

Worker finished one FP, moving on to the next FP. When do I cottage them?

I see lots of good land under the jungle. Gems/Rice seems like a great future city spot:

What do I tech after BW? When do I switch to settler? After BW? How big should I let my capital grow? What tiles should I work?

 

[sampsa]

I'd maximize growth and start settler at 4. Whip immediately when available.

Fp-cottages later, if ever. You need to grow.

 

[dankok8]

I'll try and play this one out after I finish the NC Nappy game.

 

[CGQ]

I'll try and play this one out after I finish the NC Nappy game.

I'd maximize growth and start settler at 4. Whip immediately when available.

Fp-cottages later, if ever. You need to grow.

Spoiler To Turn 39 :

Lots of FPs on this map:

BW in 2760 BC. I put 4 turns into a 3rd FP farm then started chopping:

I whipped settler and founded Medina in 2600 BC. Worker chops 2nd worker from capital so he can cottage FP as soon as Pottery arrives. Lots of tropical resources in this map too:

What to do with capital now? Whip or chop settler? What about Medina? Should I tech AH now to get cows or is there something else I could tech?

 

[dankok8]

Played this to turn 71 (1160 BC).

Spoiler :

4 cities. Most of the good city sites are around the western river with its glorious FP's and in the jungle belt. I decided to self-tech Iron Working because I couldn't wait another 30-40 turns to trade for it. If I don't settle the jungle cities I'll be stuck at like 4 cities. And also no Copper is worrying considering that Sury is on my border spamming units.

 

[dankok8]

Played to turn 115 (1 AD). A bit sloppy but in good position.

Spoiler :

7 cities. Next turn will settle #8 and have space for about two more on the NW peninsula. Also about to capture the barb city of Circassian (NE corner) as soon as it grows to size 2. With about 10-12 cities with good food I should have plenty of pop production to Cuir rush effectively even if it's late around 1000 AD.

Tech-wise not amazing but next turn I'm popping a GS to bulb Philo and my tech rate is really taking off the last few turns. Beelining Music right now because no one has Aesthetics. Diplomatically long-term the only issue is Zara running a heathen religion but he's bound to get dogpiled. Cathy is plotting but I'm not too worried even if she declares on me because I have 2 Axes and 2 Swords and she only has double my power so she can't bring anything I can't deal with. In terms of who I plan to attack.. Zara first, then maybe Sury cuz he's a pain and I can bribe Cathy to backstab him even if she's Friendly with him!

 

[dankok8]

This is unbelievable! I would really appreciate an explanation.

Spoiler :

Cathy just declared war on me while Friendly and she wasn't bribed. Has exactly the same techs and gold as the turn before. Now she might have started plotting at Pleased but she didn't stop plotting despite numerous Peace Treaties maybe for 30-40 turns (after she demanded techs and gold and I gave each time) and gone after someone else? Even more surprisingly her declaration on me broke 3 active Peace Treaties the longest of which lasts another 10 turns (I asked her for 1 gold in the 325 AD autosave and she agreed but still declares in 350 AD). She asked for Philo 3 turns before. I attached both saves.

 

[lymond]

@dankok8

Spoiler :

Regardless of what the screen shows, there are no concurrent peace treaties. You had a Peace Treaty due to expire that turn which nulls any existing "fake" peace treaties. Since she was plotting on you at Pleased, that does not necessarily stop once she hits Friendly. She was obviously gunning for you, so you need to be prepared. Unfortunate, but it happens

 

[dankok8]

@dankok8

Spoiler :

Regardless of what the screen shows, there are no concurrent peace treaties. You had a Peace Treaty due to expire that turn which nulls any existing "fake" peace treaties. Since she was plotting on you at Pleased, that does not necessarily stop once she hits Friendly. She was obviously gunning for you, so you need to be prepared. Unfortunate, but it happens

Spoiler :

I demanded gold from her the very turn before her declaration and she accepted. Doesn't that guarantee 10 turns of peace? That's what the screen shows. What do you mean by "fake" peace treaty?