My C2C ideas and possible fixes discussion

[Sir Monster The Great]

Push the obsolescence of monasteries to at least the transhuman era. You can remove the

% from them with Modern Physics, but replace it with smaller culture bonuses later down the line. Monasteries and cathedrals can be obsolesced with Syncretism and the temples can be replaced with combinations of doctrines of similar faiths. Like a Christo-Islamic temple, a Judeo-Canaanite temple, and a temple dedicated to all of Buddhism, Taoism, Jainism, and Confucianism at the same time. A temple of 4 Asiatic heads so to speak. You need the civic Neo-Syncretism in order to build them and they give weaker special bonuses, but a combination of both their respective temples regular bonuses.

Some myths (eg. Elephant Myths and Landform Myths) don't have the +1 culture bonus they should have bc of Writing. Some of them don't obsolesce their sci bonus with Writing, instead, they use Trade or Sedentary Lifestyle, which is rather weird. That's inconstant considering myths get rid of their sci bonuses with Writing.

 

[tmv]

Landform is one of the "special" myths - there are quite a few myths that are rather about "elements" (in an ancient sense, like air, stone, fire, etc.) or about fantasy animals or, in this case, about geography.

 

[Sir Monster The Great]

I believe some ocean myths (cetaceans mostly I think) have their sci removed with commercial whaling but don't give a culture bonus as a result, unlike animal myths. I think the rule for myths should be that "you get sci until you research a tech that writes about them (eg. Writing or Literature) or makes them into a science/a science that relates to myths (eg. Marine Biology)", sometimes isn't followed. I just don't good reasons not to change that and give all myths some kind of science bonus in exchange for culture when you make them myth myths or when science comes along and makes them mythical and just a part of your culture.

 

[Sir Monster The Great]

Also, some prereq techs modify buildings that require the tech. Like Commercial Whaling gives +5 gold to the whale oil maker or that Scriptures give +1 sci and culture to the calligraphy school, even though those are required for the tech that gives it. I think it makes no sense and kind of makes building unbalanced in a way.

 

[Sir Monster The Great]

I think some techs could also be renamed for better clarity, more historical authenticity for techs, fewer over/undertones, less wordiness, differentiation from other techs, and less redundancy. I've made a list of what I want to be changed on a google doc. I think we had a discussion on this some time ago, but again would be a good time to discuss this.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hQeWf8sAG5_lbmsMNreaa9SlSVhhXwo-MuKW6yeb1ss/edit?usp=sharing

Spoiler C2C Renamed Techs :

Prehistoric:
Conduct → Codes of Conduct (better name)

Classical:
Ancient Ballistics → Siege Engines ‌(more descriptive)
Ancient Machinery → Ancient Engineering (more descriptive)
Horse Breeding → Equestrianism (more descriptive)
Ancient Medicine → Humourism (more descriptive, more historically accurate name for tech placement)

Medieval:
Armored Cavalry → Barding (less wordy, more descriptive)
Armor Crafting → Plated Mail (more descriptive, pervious name is too vague)
Compass → Dry Compass (more descriptive, differentiation from industrial tech, also historically accurate to tech placment),

Renaissance:
Physics → Classical Mechanics (more descriptive, differentiation from modern tech)

Industrial:
Food Preservation → Canning (more specific, redundant in comparison to other techs eg. Drying)
Labor Unions → Labor Rights (more descriptive, also derives from Marx’s analysis of capitalism, providing a basis for labor rights beyond moral reasoning)

Atomic:
Modern Seismology → Seismology (less wordy, also there’s no different version of the tech in an different era, so “Modern” is not needed)
Advanced Metallurgy → Industrial Titanium (less wordy, more descriptive)
Communism → Marxist-Leninism (less vague, the actual ideology behind the implementation of communism/the tech)
Modern Physics → Relativistic Mechanics (more descriptive, differentiation from Renaissance tech)

Information:
Asteroid Belt Probes → Asteroid Belt Exploration (more descriptive)
Bacterium Engineering → Synthetic Microbiology (more descriptive)
Genomic Encyclopedia → Genome Mapping (more accurate, old name sounds like a building)
Gene Manipulation → Genetic Engineering (more descriptive)
Genesis Biology → Synthetic Genomics (more descriptive, fewer undertones, pedia entry talked about phylogenetics so the the name is misleading)
Imaginary Physics → Modern Theoretical Physics, Quantum Field Theory, Quantum Gravity (more descriptive, previous name implies that the science (Theoretical Physics) is fake or doesn’t exist. In otherwords, prejudiced towards anti-science)
Genetic Biochemistry → Bio-Neurogenetics (more descriptive, less wordy)

Nanotech:
Advanced Computers → Ternary Computing (more descriptive)
Advanced Environmental Systems → Space Habitats (less wordy)
Amplified Wavelengths → Optical Amplifiers (more descriptive)
Automated Robotics → Societal Automation (more descriptive, pedia talked about)
Thought Scanning → Thought Identification (more descriptive, fits with future pre-reqs)
DNA Computing → Wetware Computing (more descriptive)
Dystopia Pathogens → Designer Diseases (more descriptive)
Media Hivemind → Hyperreal Culture (more descriptive)
Ontology Engineering → Ontological Engineering (more descriptive)
Prototyped Pathogens → Synthetic Virology (more descriptive)
Supersonic Rails → Vactrains (less wordy)
Smart Drugs → Nanomedicine (more descriptive)
Warmachines → Battle Mechs (old name redundant)
Forst Beams → Cryoweapons (more general)
Synthetic Sentience → Soft-ALife, Software Life (more descriptive, also fits in with vanilla pedia entry)

Transhuman:
Advanced Shielding → Ultrashielding (less wordy)
Artificial Photosynthesis → Plantoids (more descriptive)
Apocalyptic Pathogens → Nanite-Anima Pathogens (more descriptive)
Artificial Nucleosynthesis → Nucleosynthetic Production (more descriptive)
Binary Psychokinesis → Cyberpsychokinesis (overuse of Binary, more descriptive)
Binary Semiotics → Cybersemiotics (overuse of Binary, more descriptive)
Binary Subconsciousness → Subconsciousness Engineering (overuse of Binary, more descriptive)
Binary Legislation → Cybernetic Jurisprudence (overuse of Binary, more descriptive)
Extraterrestrial Agriculture → Astroagriculture (less wordy)
Neuron Engineering → Neuroengineering (less wordy)
Whole Brain Emulation → Synthetic Neurosynthesis (old name redundant according to wiki and civpedia)
Synthetic Synesthesia → Perception Augmentation, Sensory Augmentation (more descriptive)
Artificial Life → Wet-ALife (more descriptive, also differentiation from Nanotech tech and acts as a continuation of such)

Galactic:
Advanced Seedships → Seedship Megagengineering (more descriptive)
Fusion Spacecraft → Fusion Propulsion (more descriptive)
Transtangible Neutrino Accelerators → Neutrino Accelerators (less wordy)

Transcendent:
Dualflux Quantum Temporal Rift → Quantum Rift Travel (more descriptive)
Metaverse → Metaverse Traversal (more descriptive)
Deities → Deification (more descriptive)
Atemporal Beings → Temporal Transcendence (more descriptive and in line with prereq)
Simulation Awareness → Meta-Awareness (less wordy)
Brane Construction → Brane Engineering (more descriptive)

 

[raxo2222]

I think some techs could also be renamed for better clarity, more historical authenticity for techs, fewer over/undertones, less wordiness, differentiation from other techs, and less redundancy. I've made a list of what I want to be changed on a google doc. I think we had a discussion on this some time ago, but again would be a good time to discuss this.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hQeWf8sAG5_lbmsMNreaa9SlSVhhXwo-MuKW6yeb1ss/edit?usp=sharing

Spoiler C2C Renamed Techs :

Prehistoric:
Conduct → Codes of Conduct (better name)

Classical:
Ancient Ballistics → Siege Engines ‌(more descriptive)
Ancient Machinery → Ancient Engineering (more descriptive)
Horse Breeding → Equestrianism (more descriptive)
Ancient Medicine → Humourism (more descriptive, more historically accurate name for tech placement)

Medieval:
Armored Cavalry → Barding (less wordy, more descriptive)
Armor Crafting → Plated Mail (more descriptive, pervious name is too vague)
Compass → Dry Compass (more descriptive, differentiation from industrial tech, also historically accurate to tech placment),

Renaissance:
Physics → Classical Mechanics (more descriptive, differentiation from modern tech)

Industrial:
Food Preservation → Canning (more specific, redundant in comparison to other techs eg. Drying)
Labor Unions → Labor Rights (more descriptive, also derives from Marx’s analysis of capitalism, providing a basis for labor rights beyond moral reasoning)

Atomic:
Modern Seismology → Seismology (less wordy, also there’s no different version of the tech in an different era, so “Modern” is not needed)
Advanced Metallurgy → Industrial Titanium (less wordy, more descriptive)
Communism → Marxist-Leninism (less vague, the actual ideology behind the implementation of communism/the tech)
Modern Physics → Relativistic Mechanics (more descriptive, differentiation from Renaissance tech)

Information:
Asteroid Belt Probes → Asteroid Belt Exploration (more descriptive)
Bacterium Engineering → Synthetic Microbiology (more descriptive)
Genomic Encyclopedia → Genome Mapping (more accurate, old name sounds like a building)
Gene Manipulation → Genetic Engineering (more descriptive)
Genesis Biology → Synthetic Genomics (more descriptive, fewer undertones, pedia entry talked about phylogenetics so the the name is misleading)
Imaginary Physics → Modern Theoretical Physics, Quantum Field Theory, Quantum Gravity (more descriptive, previous name implies that the science (Theoretical Physics) is fake or doesn’t exist. In otherwords, prejudiced towards anti-science)
Genetic Biochemistry → Bio-Neurogenetics (more descriptive, less wordy)

Nanotech:
Advanced Computers → Ternary Computing (more descriptive)
Advanced Environmental Systems → Space Habitats (less wordy)
Amplified Wavelengths → Optical Amplifiers (more descriptive)
Automated Robotics → Societal Automation (more descriptive, pedia talked about)
Thought Scanning → Thought Identification (more descriptive, fits with future pre-reqs)
DNA Computing → Wetware Computing (more descriptive)
Dystopia Pathogens → Designer Diseases (more descriptive)
Media Hivemind → Hyperreal Culture (more descriptive)
Ontology Engineering → Ontological Engineering (more descriptive)
Prototyped Pathogens → Synthetic Virology (more descriptive)
Supersonic Rails → Vactrains (less wordy)
Smart Drugs → Nanomedicine (more descriptive)
Warmachines → Battle Mechs (old name redundant)
Forst Beams → Cryoweapons (more general)
Synthetic Sentience → Soft-ALife, Software Life (more descriptive, also fits in with vanilla pedia entry)

Transhuman:
Advanced Shielding → Ultrashielding (less wordy)
Artificial Photosynthesis → Plantoids (more descriptive)
Apocalyptic Pathogens → Nanite-Anima Pathogens (more descriptive)
Artificial Nucleosynthesis → Nucleosynthetic Production (more descriptive)
Binary Psychokinesis → Cyberpsychokinesis (overuse of Binary, more descriptive)
Binary Semiotics → Cybersemiotics (overuse of Binary, more descriptive)
Binary Subconsciousness → Subconsciousness Engineering (overuse of Binary, more descriptive)
Binary Legislation → Cybernetic Jurisprudence (overuse of Binary, more descriptive)
Extraterrestrial Agriculture → Astroagriculture (less wordy)
Neuron Engineering → Neuroengineering (less wordy)
Whole Brain Emulation → Synthetic Neurosynthesis (old name redundant according to wiki and civpedia)
Synthetic Synesthesia → Perception Augmentation, Sensory Augmentation (more descriptive)
Artificial Life → Wet-ALife (more descriptive, also differentiation from Nanotech tech and acts as a continuation of such)

Galactic:
Advanced Seedships → Seedship Megagengineering (more descriptive)
Fusion Spacecraft → Fusion Propulsion (more descriptive)
Transtangible Neutrino Accelerators → Neutrino Accelerators (less wordy)

Transcendent:
Dualflux Quantum Temporal Rift → Quantum Rift Travel (more descriptive)
Metaverse → Metaverse Traversal (more descriptive)
Deities → Deification (more descriptive)
Atemporal Beings → Temporal Transcendence (more descriptive and in line with prereq)
Simulation Awareness → Meta-Awareness (less wordy)
Brane Construction → Brane Engineering (more descriptive)

"Relativistic mechanics" - we already have "Theory of Relativity" tech.
As for imaginary physics: Did you hear about imaginary numbers?

 

[raxo2222]

Also, some prereq techs modify buildings that require the tech. Like Commercial Whaling gives +5 gold to the whale oil maker or that Scriptures give +1 sci and culture to the calligraphy school, even though those are required for the tech that gives it. I think it makes no sense and kind of makes building unbalanced in a way.

Also found opposite thing:
+something from tech after thing obsoletes.

            <ObsoleteTech>TECH_MOTORIZED_TRANSPORTATION</ObsoleteTech>
            <PrereqTech>TECH_MEGAFAUNA_DOMESTICATION</PrereqTech>
            <iCost>624</iCost>
            <iConquestProb>100</iConquestProb>
            <iAsset>4</iAsset>
            <iPower>2</iPower>
            <YieldChanges>
                <iYield>0</iYield>
                <iYield>0</iYield>
                <iYield>1</iYield>
            </YieldChanges>
            <CommerceChanges>
                <iCommerce>1</iCommerce>
            </CommerceChanges>
            <TechCommerceChanges>
                <TechCommerceChange>
                    <PrereqTech>TECH_TOURISM</PrereqTech>
                    <TechCommerce>
                        <iCommerce>1</iCommerce>
                    </TechCommerce>
                </TechCommerceChange>
            </TechCommerceChanges>

TechYieldModifiers used only once... wonder if it even works.
Edit: It works.
Much more buildings could have it.

 

[Sir Monster The Great]

"Relativistic mechanics" - we already have "Theory of Relativity" tech.
As for imaginary physics: Did you hear about imaginary numbers?

Yes. But I think when most people see "imaginary physics" as a name, that has a different connotation than that of imaginary numbers. Imaginary, in that context, refers to a different meaning than that of the context used in C2C, which is not a math game nor very mathematic. Relativistic Mechanics is about the synthesis of the Theory of Relativity and that of quantum mechanics, as well as those beyond Theory of Relativity (the tech takes place during the 1950s so after einstein's death.)

 

[Sir Monster The Great]

Also found opposite thing:
+something from tech after thing obsoletes.

            <ObsoleteTech>TECH_MOTORIZED_TRANSPORTATION</ObsoleteTech>
            <PrereqTech>TECH_MEGAFAUNA_DOMESTICATION</PrereqTech>
            <iCost>624</iCost>
            <iConquestProb>100</iConquestProb>
            <iAsset>4</iAsset>
            <iPower>2</iPower>
            <YieldChanges>
                <iYield>0</iYield>
                <iYield>0</iYield>
                <iYield>1</iYield>
            </YieldChanges>
            <CommerceChanges>
                <iCommerce>1</iCommerce>
            </CommerceChanges>
            <TechCommerceChanges>
                <TechCommerceChange>
                    <PrereqTech>TECH_TOURISM</PrereqTech>
                    <TechCommerce>
                        <iCommerce>1</iCommerce>
                    </TechCommerce>
                </TechCommerceChange>
            </TechCommerceChanges>

TechYieldModifiers used only once... wonder if it even works.

I've seen that happen as well. I think Ecology has some tech building modifiers, but they obsolesce that building. For instance, it gives the bug sanctuaries +1 culture, but the buildings go obsolete with Agrichemicals, so the effect never gets used.

 

[raxo2222]

Yes. But I think when most people see "imaginary physics" as a name, that has a different connotation than that of imaginary numbers. Imaginary, in that context, refers to a different meaning than that of the context used in C2C, which is not a math game nor very mathematic. Relativistic Mechanics is about the synthesis of the Theory of Relativity and that of quantum mechanics, as well as those beyond Theory of Relativity (the tech takes place during the 1950s so after einstein's death.)

As for weird connotations - some people got annoyed by this:

Spoiler :

Urban culture unlocks crime related stuff and nothing else.
It also needs minority rights to research it.
Problem with that is minority rights not leading to anything else.

So things like that are littered across mod.

 

[Sir Monster The Great]

I think minority rights may also refer to other non-ethnic minorities, but yeah I agree with Urban Culture being a bit problematic. I think the tech needs to be removed and have the buildings redistributed to other techs. Gang Warfare is the most obvious. It's a bit America-centric. Gang Warfare could be enabled with Minority Rights and drugs (gang violence is often surrounded by the need for the sale of drugs). That would also make sense from an ideological perspective as well; it would represent the alt-right militias of the 60s. If you really want to hammer home the point of the gangs being related to drugs, make it require drugs in order to be auto built and renamed to "Crime (Drug Gangs)" and make a new building that represents militia groups called "Crime (Ideological Militias)". Drug Gangs are enabled with Minority Rights, require drugs, and Ideological Militias are enabled with Mass Media. I think School Shootings should also be enabled with Mass Media. That's my thoughts anyway on the matter.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Urban Culture also represents rap music's birth, the proliferation of graffiti as a revolutionary art style, and the invention of the 'war on drugs', as well as an era where inner cities begin to decay and little is being done about it.

The tree is about to be adjusted somewhat as well.

 

[raxo2222]

Urban Culture also represents rap music's birth, the proliferation of graffiti as a revolutionary art style, and the invention of the 'war on drugs', as well as an era where inner cities begin to decay and little is being done about it.

The tree is about to be adjusted somewhat as well.

So it could require counter culture instead of Minority Rights.
Also it could have some cultural buildings as well.

Also general problem with crimes is that some stuff was there for very long, but it was only recently recognized and delegalized.

I think there could be cultural tolerance/taboo edicts - something like in Crusader Kings.
You could make it legal or illegal.
There are some crime buildings, that have unsanctioned version.

So edicts like that could switch things:
Legal - you can build it, and there is no unsanctioned version.
Illegal - can't make it, but unsanctioned version will appear at certain crime level.

 

[Thunderbrd]

So it could require counter culture instead of Minority Rights.

Again, the tree is being slightly adjusted - I'm not sure how prereqs will play out in the end yet. Also introducing another stage of the battle for equality around there. And yes, there could be some more development in buildings and legal edicts and such to improve and widen what this tech captures. We should have hit Rap Songs being introduced here as a bonus as well and sometimes graffiti artists are commissioned for massive inner city murals that improve city culture and morale. It was never meant to be 'all bad' - it's just a WIP tech is all. Did fighting for rights result in it? Only in that as people earn freedom, they start fighting to survive on the ground floor of a society and have to earn their way up. There's a lot of resistance to inequality taking place here. FTP as a message was a positive thing in its day despite also being an expression of backing crime. In fact the entire crime development throughout the game is intended to break us free from the automatic belief that crime is a bad thing. It has horrible consequences when allowed to spread and get out of control, yes, but it's also an expression to let us know that somewhere society is being driven in the wrong direction, oppression of some sort usually. The revolutionary 1700s criminal would be the reason we have the French and US revolutions entirely, and therefore you can't say it's all bad - the people sometimes need to let the state know it's gone too far.

And obviously inner city gang warfare (which isn't a good name because there was a very different 'chicagoland' style of gang warfare long before this) was largely due to the importing of South American drugs arranged by the CIA to feed the war budgets they couldn't openly get support for. The 'war on drugs' was all a part of that project but... I won't get too far into what they were up to as a whole. Suffice it to say, a good % of criminals have long been agents of the state and this time period was no different.

 

[raxo2222]

Again, the tree is being slightly adjusted - I'm not sure how prereqs will play out in the end yet. Also introducing another stage of the battle for equality around there. And yes, there could be some more development in buildings and legal edicts and such to improve and widen what this tech captures. We should have hit Rap Songs being introduced here as a bonus as well and sometimes graffiti artists are commissioned for massive inner city murals that improve city culture and morale. It was never meant to be 'all bad' - it's just a WIP tech is all. Did fighting for rights result in it? Only in that as people earn freedom, they start fighting to survive on the ground floor of a society and have to earn their way up. There's a lot of resistance to inequality taking place here. FTP as a message was a positive thing in its day despite also being an expression of backing crime. In fact the entire crime development throughout the game is intended to break us free from the automatic belief that crime is a bad thing. It has horrible consequences when allowed to spread and get out of control, yes, but it's also an expression to let us know that somewhere society is being driven in the wrong direction, oppression of some sort usually. The revolutionary 1700s criminal would be the reason we have the French and US revolutions entirely, and therefore you can't say it's all bad - the people sometimes need to let the state know it's gone too far.

And obviously inner city gang warfare (which isn't a good name because there was a very different 'chicagoland' style of gang warfare long before this) was largely due to the importing of South American drugs arranged by the CIA to feed the war budgets they couldn't openly get support for. The 'war on drugs' was all a part of that project but... I won't get too far into what they were up to as a whole. Suffice it to say, a good % of criminals have long been agents of the state and this time period was no different.

Criminals are Chaotic Neutral in this game then (against laws, doesn't care about morality).

If you pick edicts and civics so your country is culturally and economically very egalitarian and doesn't have taboos, then your criminals would be freedom fighters in other, more authoritarian countries.
Also environmental egalitarianism could be a thing too - it could help with pollution, but reduce growth rate.

You could easily kill any growth or even collapse civilization if you would be too egalitarian, or too authoritarian - so you would to make sure that you aren't too extreme one or other way.

 

[Sir Monster The Great]

Urban Culture also represents rap music's birth, the proliferation of graffiti as a revolutionary art style, and the invention of the 'war on drugs', as well as an era where inner cities begin to decay and little is being done about it.

The tree is about to be adjusted somewhat as well.

Then should the tech be renamed "Drug Prohibition" to fit the style of it representing "the war on drugs"? The birth of rap music was in the 70s so around the time of New Urbanism and Microprocessor techs. A new tech called "Hip-Hop Music" or "Rap Culture", requiring Minority Rights. As for the graffiti, that could be another tech, requiring Rap Culture, called Street Art and whatever makes it flow better. It could be in the place where Urban Culture is now or just below it. That could be the new prereq for Information Lifestyle in place of Urban Culture.

 

[raxo2222]

Then should the tech be renamed "Drug Prohibition" to fit the style of it representing "the war on drugs"? The birth of rap music was in the 70s so around the time of New Urbanism and Microprocessor techs. A new tech called "Hip-Hop Music" or "Rap Culture", requiring Minority Rights. As for the graffiti, that could be another tech, requiring Rap Culture, called Street Art and whatever makes it flow better. It could be in the place where Urban Culture is now or just below it. That could be the new prereq for Information Lifestyle in place of Urban Culture.

There is ordnance, that lets you ban drugs.

 

[Sir Monster The Great]

So it could require counter culture instead of Minority Rights.
Also it could have some cultural buildings as well.

Also general problem with crimes is that some stuff was there for very long, but it was only recently recognized and delegalized.

I think there could be cultural tolerance/taboo edicts - something like in Crusader Kings.
You could make it legal or illegal.
There are some crime buildings, that have unsanctioned version.

So edicts like that could switch things:
Legal - you can build it, and there is no unsanctioned version.
Illegal - can't make it, but unsanctioned version will appear at certain crime level.

That's generally a good idea. Another I've been floating around for some time is political ideology. They act like religions, but they enable civics associated with them or they have a synergy that makes those civics more powerful. They also give buildings and enable some. You can even state-sanctioned ideologies much as you can have state religions and they would be enabled picking authoritarian type civics.

 

[Sir Monster The Great]

There is ordnance, that lets you ban drugs.

There's that, but the tech is there to represent "the war on drugs". In fact, I think it could be like Lead Glass or Waterproof Concrete in that aspect. Not a required tech, but tech that helps or gives extra stuff.

 

[Sir Monster The Great]

I've seen that happen as well. I think Ecology has some tech building modifiers, but they obsolesce that building. For instance, it gives the bug sanctuaries +1 culture, but the buildings go obsolete with Agrichemicals, so the effect never gets used.

Found yet another instance of this. Sort of. Pharmacy goes obsolete with Personalized Health, but smart medicine gives a health bonus despite that.