techangel
Chieftain
- Joined
- Oct 17, 2010
- Messages
- 2
After playing 1 game of Civ VI (albeit, 80 hrs by the Steam clock, half of those in the first 72 hours after game drop) (and no I'm still not ending it yet, even after winning by Culture, Score, AND Space Race... yes if you 'one more turn' Civ VI does not stamp that you've won and you are still eligible for the other winning conditions!!!)
-and-
after reading all the continuing gripe about how broken Diplomacy still is
-and-
having a 'eureka' moment at o' dark hundred because I can't stop playing even with my eyes closed and my head on the pillow...
After all of that, Here is my Fix for Diplomacy....
First -
Get rid of City-States as they are. Replace it with a three tier system for states: Empire Builders for Nation-States (unlimited Settlers), Regional Powers for Country-States (initial Settler plus two more Settlers from Capitol City), Influence Peddlers for City-States (initial Settler only).
Nation-States (w/ more cities) can build Wonders and attract Great People. Country-States will most likely be able to build Wonders but not attract Great People (after the Ancient Era). It will be unlikely that City-States will be able to build Wonders and/or attract Great People (after the Ancient Era). Otherwise the tiers operate the same way.
You choose to play what state type that you want. For single player, in addition to choosing what state type to play (and your civilization specifics), you choose how many Nation-States AI to play (and their civilization specifics). As for Country-States and City-States, you choose the tier ratio of #Nations:#Countries:#Cities (where #Nations is [int] > 0 and #Countries #Cities are [int] >= 0) (I suggest that 1:2:3 be the default); and you get to white and/or black list civilizations for each tier.
Second - (this is the secret herbs & spices)
Expand Influence Points! Currently, as far as I can tell, they are only used as counters in Envoy (to City-State) generation. Make them the PRIME Diplomatic currency!! Let them be earned and/or consumed for ALL diplomatic actions. Let them work as IOUs; i.e. Venice requests a trade route, you do it, you earn Influence Points on them, later you want an Alliance from them you offer to 'cash in' the Influence Points you have on them; they can haggle on the amount of Influence Points needed to honor the request but failure to honor the request devalues the Influence Points on them (once the dishonor is known, the devalue is likely worldwide). This system will allow the Player/AI to place a value on their actions and the actions of others, it better enables the 'agenda' system, and clearly enables 'attitude' feedback between Players and/or AIs (if you are offended by someone, you can show your irritation by a forcing a 'cash in' of Influence Points held on you by them).
Treaties (promises of actions) should done with Influence Points and coin; while, Trade agreements should only involve coins and things.
With the above, I suggest that there be several classes of Treaties: Alliance, Policy, Border, Passage, and Customs.
Alliance Treaties:
Full Alliance Pack (all other treaties), Limited Alliance Pack (selection of other treaties);
Policy Treaties:
Joint Aggression Pack (both war/'rattle sabers' together on common opponent), Mutual Defense Pack (if either attacked, both defend), Non-Aggression Pack (will not attack each other), Friendship Pack (favorable trade agreements), Shared Research Pack (pooling of 'beakers', the advanced partner shares what ever tech is earned during the pact, the lagging partner forgoes separate tech earnings), Joint Project Pack (benefits of agreed upon special project are shared by both), Peace Pack (cessation of hostilities);
Border Treaties:
Open Borders (allow all types of safe passage), Limited Borders (allow selected types of safe passage);
Passage Treaties: (all can allow black listing by type of unit and/or name of unit) (safe passage for Great Persons require Diplomatic and passage in their specialty)
Diplomatic Safe Passage, Military Safe Passage, Workers Safe Passage (Builders, Military Engineers, etc.), Trade Safe Passage, Religious Safe Passage, Tourism Safe Passage and Commerce Safe Passage (if Corporations are reintroduced to allow an economic victory condition - see future post);
Customs Treaties: (for transportation connections)
All Customs (all connections), Limited Customs (allow selected types of connections);
Connection Treaties: (w/ Central Pier/Terminal in City Center, Cargo Pier/Terminal in Commercial Hub, and Freight Pier/Terminal in Industrial Zone)
Roadway Connection, Waterway (River/Canal via Pier {new type of building}) Connection, Seaway (via Harbor) Connection, Railway (via Terminal {new type of building}) Connection, Airway (via Aerodrome) Connection and Spaceway (via Spaceport) Connections.
A Diplomatic offense is a action that (appears to) contravenes a treaty or an attempt at an action not covered by treaty (note: a failing of a trade agreement may also be an offense). First offense against a specific treaty, the offended may require an apology and a promise (not to commit the offense again) in lieu of a forced 'cash in' of Influence Points held on you by them. A second offense (within 30 turns against the same specific treaty) will have a denouncement as an option. A third offense (within 30 turns against the same specific treaty) will have a 'Casus Belli' option (you can declare war).
War can sunder all treaties, a surprise war will, whereas a war with a Casus Belli does not have to. You can wage a limited war with a Casus Belli, declaring which treaties are revoked as you launch your war; your opponent, of course, my choose to revoke additional treaties. The warmongering penalty is reflected in what others do with respect to a forced 'cash in' of Influence Points held on you by them; and in the case of a surprise war, the general devaluation of Influence Points held on you. Conversely, if your war is actually doing someone a favor, you can earn Influence Points on them.
Third -
For better unit management, have a Foreign Quarters district. One should be built adjoining the City Center that houses the Palace, additional Foreign Quarters can be built in other cities. The initial building in the Foreign Quarters is the Embassy Row, this enables the exchange of embassies (consulate in non capital cities)(boosts housing and tourism). The second building is the Foreign Secrets Bureau (enables espionage units to be built in the city). The third building is the Domestic Secrets Bureau (enables counter espionage units in the city center, other districts and the field).
The Embassy Row enables Envoys (Ambassadors {3 pips sent to Nation-State Capitals}, Ministers/Consuls {2 pips sent to Country-State capitals or Nation-State non capitals}, Charge d'Affairs {1 pips sent to City-States or Country-State non capitals}) and Trusted Builders (builds Embassy in a foreign capital city, Consulate in a foreign non capital, moves either to different city also repairs damage to either).
The Foreign Secrets Bureau enables Spies; if the Foreign Quarter is adjacent to a type of specialty district, then the city can produce that type of specialized spies (i.e. if the Foreign Quarters is next to an Industrial Zone then the city can produce an Industrial Spy, etc.). The FS Bureau enables selected units in other Districts in the city: a False Flag Ship and an Elint Ship from the Harbor, a Spy Plane from the Aerodrome, and a Spy Sat from the Spaceport. All espionage units are invisible to other units (except counter espionage units and improvements) and do not have a stack penalty with respect to other units (although, they do have a stack penalty with respect with each other).
The Domestic Secrets Bureau enables Inspectors. Inspectors can (probably) detect espionage units when they are in the same hex (promoted units gain better detection probability and range). They can fortify (this increases their detection rate) or they can explore (in search or patrol). They cannot move outside of their city limits but can be 're-based' in another city. Like espionage units, counter espionage units do not have a stack penalty with other units, but do with each other. If an espionage unit is detected and it is not within (melee) range the counter espionage unit will wake up or stop moving, if it is within melee range then an apprehension is attempted (with deadly force, if necessary). The DS Bureau also enables the Trusted Builder to build observation towers (to detect spy ships and planes) and special observatories (to detect spy sats).
Note: before the building of the Foreign Quarter only 'vanilla' diplomacy is possible (w/ no espionage or counter espionage).
Lastly -
With all of that the winning condition should be attaining Full Alliances w/ a super-majority of Civs in each tier of states.
I genuinely believe it is possible to mod all of this but because of the radical change in the first part it is probably best if it is part of an official expansion.
-David S.
P.S. As you can tell I have ideas for: fixing military units (especially late era naval units, aviation units and wmds), the transportation networks (interesting effort but gave up too much richness for the sake of simplification), adding a missing victory condition by resurrecting a feature from Civ IV. The rest will be coming soon enough
-and-
after reading all the continuing gripe about how broken Diplomacy still is
-and-
having a 'eureka' moment at o' dark hundred because I can't stop playing even with my eyes closed and my head on the pillow...
After all of that, Here is my Fix for Diplomacy....
First -
Get rid of City-States as they are. Replace it with a three tier system for states: Empire Builders for Nation-States (unlimited Settlers), Regional Powers for Country-States (initial Settler plus two more Settlers from Capitol City), Influence Peddlers for City-States (initial Settler only).
Nation-States (w/ more cities) can build Wonders and attract Great People. Country-States will most likely be able to build Wonders but not attract Great People (after the Ancient Era). It will be unlikely that City-States will be able to build Wonders and/or attract Great People (after the Ancient Era). Otherwise the tiers operate the same way.
You choose to play what state type that you want. For single player, in addition to choosing what state type to play (and your civilization specifics), you choose how many Nation-States AI to play (and their civilization specifics). As for Country-States and City-States, you choose the tier ratio of #Nations:#Countries:#Cities (where #Nations is [int] > 0 and #Countries #Cities are [int] >= 0) (I suggest that 1:2:3 be the default); and you get to white and/or black list civilizations for each tier.
Second - (this is the secret herbs & spices)
Expand Influence Points! Currently, as far as I can tell, they are only used as counters in Envoy (to City-State) generation. Make them the PRIME Diplomatic currency!! Let them be earned and/or consumed for ALL diplomatic actions. Let them work as IOUs; i.e. Venice requests a trade route, you do it, you earn Influence Points on them, later you want an Alliance from them you offer to 'cash in' the Influence Points you have on them; they can haggle on the amount of Influence Points needed to honor the request but failure to honor the request devalues the Influence Points on them (once the dishonor is known, the devalue is likely worldwide). This system will allow the Player/AI to place a value on their actions and the actions of others, it better enables the 'agenda' system, and clearly enables 'attitude' feedback between Players and/or AIs (if you are offended by someone, you can show your irritation by a forcing a 'cash in' of Influence Points held on you by them).
Treaties (promises of actions) should done with Influence Points and coin; while, Trade agreements should only involve coins and things.
With the above, I suggest that there be several classes of Treaties: Alliance, Policy, Border, Passage, and Customs.
Alliance Treaties:
Full Alliance Pack (all other treaties), Limited Alliance Pack (selection of other treaties);
Policy Treaties:
Joint Aggression Pack (both war/'rattle sabers' together on common opponent), Mutual Defense Pack (if either attacked, both defend), Non-Aggression Pack (will not attack each other), Friendship Pack (favorable trade agreements), Shared Research Pack (pooling of 'beakers', the advanced partner shares what ever tech is earned during the pact, the lagging partner forgoes separate tech earnings), Joint Project Pack (benefits of agreed upon special project are shared by both), Peace Pack (cessation of hostilities);
Border Treaties:
Open Borders (allow all types of safe passage), Limited Borders (allow selected types of safe passage);
Passage Treaties: (all can allow black listing by type of unit and/or name of unit) (safe passage for Great Persons require Diplomatic and passage in their specialty)
Diplomatic Safe Passage, Military Safe Passage, Workers Safe Passage (Builders, Military Engineers, etc.), Trade Safe Passage, Religious Safe Passage, Tourism Safe Passage and Commerce Safe Passage (if Corporations are reintroduced to allow an economic victory condition - see future post);
Customs Treaties: (for transportation connections)
All Customs (all connections), Limited Customs (allow selected types of connections);
Connection Treaties: (w/ Central Pier/Terminal in City Center, Cargo Pier/Terminal in Commercial Hub, and Freight Pier/Terminal in Industrial Zone)
Roadway Connection, Waterway (River/Canal via Pier {new type of building}) Connection, Seaway (via Harbor) Connection, Railway (via Terminal {new type of building}) Connection, Airway (via Aerodrome) Connection and Spaceway (via Spaceport) Connections.
A Diplomatic offense is a action that (appears to) contravenes a treaty or an attempt at an action not covered by treaty (note: a failing of a trade agreement may also be an offense). First offense against a specific treaty, the offended may require an apology and a promise (not to commit the offense again) in lieu of a forced 'cash in' of Influence Points held on you by them. A second offense (within 30 turns against the same specific treaty) will have a denouncement as an option. A third offense (within 30 turns against the same specific treaty) will have a 'Casus Belli' option (you can declare war).
War can sunder all treaties, a surprise war will, whereas a war with a Casus Belli does not have to. You can wage a limited war with a Casus Belli, declaring which treaties are revoked as you launch your war; your opponent, of course, my choose to revoke additional treaties. The warmongering penalty is reflected in what others do with respect to a forced 'cash in' of Influence Points held on you by them; and in the case of a surprise war, the general devaluation of Influence Points held on you. Conversely, if your war is actually doing someone a favor, you can earn Influence Points on them.
Third -
For better unit management, have a Foreign Quarters district. One should be built adjoining the City Center that houses the Palace, additional Foreign Quarters can be built in other cities. The initial building in the Foreign Quarters is the Embassy Row, this enables the exchange of embassies (consulate in non capital cities)(boosts housing and tourism). The second building is the Foreign Secrets Bureau (enables espionage units to be built in the city). The third building is the Domestic Secrets Bureau (enables counter espionage units in the city center, other districts and the field).
The Embassy Row enables Envoys (Ambassadors {3 pips sent to Nation-State Capitals}, Ministers/Consuls {2 pips sent to Country-State capitals or Nation-State non capitals}, Charge d'Affairs {1 pips sent to City-States or Country-State non capitals}) and Trusted Builders (builds Embassy in a foreign capital city, Consulate in a foreign non capital, moves either to different city also repairs damage to either).
The Foreign Secrets Bureau enables Spies; if the Foreign Quarter is adjacent to a type of specialty district, then the city can produce that type of specialized spies (i.e. if the Foreign Quarters is next to an Industrial Zone then the city can produce an Industrial Spy, etc.). The FS Bureau enables selected units in other Districts in the city: a False Flag Ship and an Elint Ship from the Harbor, a Spy Plane from the Aerodrome, and a Spy Sat from the Spaceport. All espionage units are invisible to other units (except counter espionage units and improvements) and do not have a stack penalty with respect to other units (although, they do have a stack penalty with respect with each other).
The Domestic Secrets Bureau enables Inspectors. Inspectors can (probably) detect espionage units when they are in the same hex (promoted units gain better detection probability and range). They can fortify (this increases their detection rate) or they can explore (in search or patrol). They cannot move outside of their city limits but can be 're-based' in another city. Like espionage units, counter espionage units do not have a stack penalty with other units, but do with each other. If an espionage unit is detected and it is not within (melee) range the counter espionage unit will wake up or stop moving, if it is within melee range then an apprehension is attempted (with deadly force, if necessary). The DS Bureau also enables the Trusted Builder to build observation towers (to detect spy ships and planes) and special observatories (to detect spy sats).
Note: before the building of the Foreign Quarter only 'vanilla' diplomacy is possible (w/ no espionage or counter espionage).
Lastly -
With all of that the winning condition should be attaining Full Alliances w/ a super-majority of Civs in each tier of states.
I genuinely believe it is possible to mod all of this but because of the radical change in the first part it is probably best if it is part of an official expansion.
-David S.
P.S. As you can tell I have ideas for: fixing military units (especially late era naval units, aviation units and wmds), the transportation networks (interesting effort but gave up too much richness for the sake of simplification), adding a missing victory condition by resurrecting a feature from Civ IV. The rest will be coming soon enough
