My nationalistic pride

[Benz]

I found out a pretty good description that summerized the Québec situation.

It is not writen by a sovereignist so, I guess the septicals can trust it!

http://webcenter.roughguides.netscape.com/content/2963/10044.htm

 

[Bill_in_PDX]

Originally posted by Benz
I found out a pretty good description that summerized the Québec situation.

It is not writen by a sovereignist so, I guess the septicals can trust it!

http://webcenter.roughguides.netscape.com/content/2963/10044.htm

It is a pretty good read, thank you for the link.

I also think it reinforces my concern posed to you, and by the way, I did not say that Quebec was worthless to Canada, so please do not build strawman arguments.

What I did speculate, and this article confirms, is that Quebec would receive, and in fact has already received, a disproportionate amount of the governement tax revenue in support of these seperatist programs.

Under an EU relationship as I see it, Quebec would like to see itself gain benefit from the sharing of all parts of the Canadian tax base and economy, but still reserve the right to opt out anytime they saw fit. This is just not reasonable to anyone outside of Quebec I'll wager, and a better solution would be total separation, and let Quebec go it's own way.

That brings up the question of if Quebec has an economy and resources necessary to survive on it's own. I differ with you on the size of the Canadian economy, though only slightly, as my info says that Canada's GDP is #11 in the world as of 2000, just behind Mexico, but ahead of Spain. See:

http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/global.rankings/

Note that the data there comes from countrywatch.com and does tend to contradict itself, in the short overview, it refers to Canada as the fifth largest economy in the world (something you quoted), and that same small paragraph says that Canadians enjoy the highest standard of living in the world...I wonder if that is news to some of my friends up north? In the larger narrative it refers to Canada as the 11th largest economy in the world. I think GDP is a pretty good measure to use.

That is certainly good enough considering the comparative population for GDP, however, my understanding was that Alberta's resources and Ontario's industry were the drivers of that economy. Quebec itself is a merchandising and distribution center of that production, but under a seperatist move, what in Quebec could be distributed once the other provinces create their own version of Montreal? Not meant as a slam, but something for you to think about.

I can see the other provinces' concerns with fairness. If Quebec truely cannot work within the structure of the Canadian constitution, and recognize that the majority rules in a republic, then they need to go their own way. It is unfair to ask the other provinces to be less equal just to satisfy your own needs.

I would hope that Canada itself would not breakup further due to that event. I would welcome BC as the 51st state but I enjoy more the thought of travelling to foreign exotic lands when I trek up to Victoria...

It is staggering to note, and heartening to a capitalist like myself, that over US$1,000,000,000 per day occurs over our 8,000km undefended borders.

Quite an example for the rest of the world, though as noted earlier in this thread, the reaction of the US to a seperation is far from a given (in terms of extending agreements in place), and might be somewhat of a surprise to the Quebec citizens depending upon how independance was achieved.

 

[Benz]

Bill,

I don't get it!

"Under an EU relationship as I see it, Quebec would like to see itself gain benefit from the sharing of all parts of the Canadian tax base and economy, but still reserve the right to opt out anytime they saw fit."

why? You are missing a point. We will NOT take Canadian tax money. The stuff that we will share, we will ALL benefit from it. So what is the big deal?

"I differ with you on the size of the Canadian economy, though only slightly, as my info says that Canada's GDP is #11 in the world as of 2000, just behind Mexico, but ahead of Spain. See: "

What I see is that on GDP per capita, Mexico is 48. That means the scale between poors and riches is much higher in Mexico. Since, I have Mexican friends living there and I have visited them two times, I am pretty well place to say that there is no comparision possible between Mexico and Canada. The life condition in Canada are so greater than Mexico than it is useless to compare them.

"my understanding was that Alberta's resources and Ontario's industry were the drivers of that economy"

They are the two best performer, yes.

"what in Quebec could be distributed once the other provinces create their own version of Montreal"

The same stuff as today. Our ressources, companies, knowledges, industries, and so on... it won't desapear. I just don't understand your point.

"It is unfair to ask the other provinces to be less equal just to satisfy your own needs. "

The population of Canada is merely the same as the one in California. I do not recall any complaints from Californians about the fact that Canada has a seat to UN and they don't.

Bill, you cannot compare oranges with apples. Québec is a distinct society from the ROC. They won't be LESS. French will have their state within Québec and English will have their state within English part of Canada. Whether they want to be all into the same state with nine provinces or divided up in regional states, it is not of my business.

"I would hope that Canada itself would not breakup further due to that event. "

Does the risk to collapse the Canada appart worth the non-recognition of our distinct society? :crazyeyes You have a big brainstorming to do yourself either. Our solution provides both our sovereignties and an unity within a confederation. So what is the big deal?

"might be somewhat of a surprise to the Quebec citizens depending upon how independance was achieved."

It is true that we would be very suprised if the Canadian leader decides to play a Milocevic-like and retain Québec by the force. I am pretty confident that it won't happen and the fruit of negociations will be benefit for all. There won't be a winner if the negociations go wrong. Neither us, nor the English part.

Every reasonable human being know that!

 

[Bill_in_PDX]

Originally posted by Benz
Bill,

I don't get it!

"Under an EU relationship as I see it, Quebec would like to see itself gain benefit from the sharing of all parts of the Canadian tax base and economy, but still reserve the right to opt out anytime they saw fit."

why? You are missing a point. We will NOT take Canadian tax money. The stuff that we will share, we will ALL benefit from it. So what is the big deal?

"I differ with you on the size of the Canadian economy, though only slightly, as my info says that Canada's GDP is #11 in the world as of 2000, just behind Mexico, but ahead of Spain. See: "

What I see is that on GDP per capita, Mexico is 48. That means the scale between poors and riches is much higher in Mexico. Since, I have Mexican friends living there and I have visited them two times, I am pretty well place to say that there is no comparision possible between Mexico and Canada. The life condition in Canada are so greater than Mexico than it is useless to compare them.

"my understanding was that Alberta's resources and Ontario's industry were the drivers of that economy"

They are the two best performer, yes.

"what in Quebec could be distributed once the other provinces create their own version of Montreal"

The same stuff as today. Our ressources, companies, knowledges, industries, and so on... it won't desapear. I just don't understand your point.

"It is unfair to ask the other provinces to be less equal just to satisfy your own needs. "

The population of Canada is merely the same as the one in California. I do not recall any complaints from Californians about the fact that Canada has a seat to UN and they don't.

Bill, you cannot compare oranges with apples. Québec is a distinct society from the ROC. They won't be LESS. French will have their state within Québec and English will have their state within English part of Canada. Whether they want to be all into the same state with nine provinces or divided up in regional states, it is not of my business.

"I would hope that Canada itself would not breakup further due to that event. "

Does the risk to collapse the Canada appart worth the non-recognition of our distinct society? :crazyeyes You have a big brainstorming to do yourself either. Our solution provides both our sovereignties and an unity within a confederation. So what is the big deal?

"might be somewhat of a surprise to the Quebec citizens depending upon how independance was achieved."

It is true that we would be very suprised if the Canadian leader decides to play a Milocevic-like and retain Québec by the force. I am pretty confident that it won't happen and the fruit of negociations will be benefit for all. There won't be a winner if the negociations go wrong. Neither us, nor the English part.

Every reasonable human being know that!

But you would be taking Canadian tax money (through shared services and military and the like). Would Quebec and the remainder of Canada be equal economic powers? If not, then one or the other gets a bad deal.

The EU idea is that by breaking down barriers among many diverse economies with geography in common, then you will increase everyone's economic power. Your model is different, I cannot see how Canada's economic power will increase through a EU relationship with Quebec.

So again I ask, what's in it for them?

Speaking about apples to oranges, uhm, what the hey does California have to do with anything? California does have a seat on the UN, it's labeled United States, nor is it less equal than any other state in our union. In fact, in the House, it has the highest number of representatives.

Economically what does Quebec produce? I am asking, because if the Quebec economy is strongly tied to production from Ontario and Alberta, then it will be in trouble standing on it's own. I honestly don't know that answer, that's why I am asking.

Yes, I think the risk of breaking up Canada is worth balancing against the vocal group of Quebec residents who clammor for an independance that isn't fully thought out.

 

[Benz]

"But you would be taking Canadian tax money (through shared services and military and the like). "

And we will give Quebec money either. So what's the point? Tell us why Québec would not pay their share?

Both Canada and Québec would benefit. Québec will be a great contributor and it will cover more expenses than if Québec is not part of the equation. Please give me an exaustive explanation of on how come the ROC would be a loser to benefit from the paid share from Québec. We do not expect to use these confederal tools more than we every did.

"The EU idea is that by breaking down barriers among many diverse economies with geography in common, then you will increase everyone's economic power. Your model is different, I cannot see how Canada's economic power will increase through a EU relationship with Quebec. "

Why? What is the difference? I think you should rather ask to the Torontonian business men. Harris, the former leader of Ontario clearly said that he will keep up the same relations with an independent Québec. Since Ontario represents the biggest province of Canada, I suggest you to talk them first.

"California does have a seat on the UN, it's labeled United States, nor is it less equal than any other state in our union."

California does not feel to have more than this because they feel they are as american as New York and Florida. It is not the case about Québec vs Canada. If you compare Québec culture with english Canada's, it is like if you compare USA's with France's. You said "and recognize that the majority rules in a republic" amd I answer you, Canada does not form a republic like the USA. There is clearly two distinct nations. Unlike in the USA.

"Economically what does Quebec produce? I am asking, because if the Quebec economy is strongly tied to production from Ontario and Alberta, then it will be in trouble standing on it's own. I honestly don't know that answer, that's why I am asking. "

We have one of the best bio-pharmaceutic sector industry in america
Bombardier, one of the leaders in the aero-spacial industry
Québecor, a leader in paper industry
Alcan, a big Aluminium producer
Lavalin, a multinational ingenering company
Hydro-Québec, totally owned by the gov't and one of the best efective and productive hydro-electricity. We earn profits of around 1.5G USD a year, even if we have one of the lowest cost in North America.
Montréal is in the top 5 best cities for technology industry

We have a very good human ressources and a pretty well shaped and growing economy. We are very close to the same Finland's results about educational success.

and so on... we have nothing to be ashamed of. It doesn't scare me a bit.

"that isn't fully thought out"

Well, it depends about who we are talking about. Because I don't think that nuking economical relations is quite "fully thought out". Almost if it is only because you want to penalized a democratically freed region. Until now, all our partners said they would like to continu business with us if we get separate. I don't think they have lied and I don't think we would be willing to change their mind.

Oh by the way, I have a good one for you. About half of the american lottery corporations are doing business with the printer Oberthur Gaming Technologies. It is a branch of the French company Oberthur based in France. Guess who is either their auditor and the biggest lottery auditor in North America? Samson Bélair, the Québec part of Deloitte & Touche. So, around half of the american lottery corporations have their scratch ticket games audited by the Montréal firm. They also audit several European Lottery Corporations. I worked for them 7 years before I changed to a better position into a Montréal branch of a Swiss bank.

As you can see, I am not impressed by your concerns about if we are a good potential partner or not. I know we are and our actual relations know it as well.