My Noobish Deity Warlords 2.08 attemt 1

[RedKi-rr]

I would like to try my first forum game. Which wins do I have at Deity level? The first one as Inca (probably near gold) at Island_Sea and second (and last) one as Peter at Fractal. Both were cultural victories. This was about a year ago and after that I didn't play civ4 and only read forum. So I have a lot of theory now and wish to have some stong victory at Deity. In one of threads I saw how author ranged victories: conquest/domination are gold medal, spaceship is silver medal, cultural/diplomatic are bronze medal. So, I (We) want gold medal (even if would involve some luck).
Also, I'm sorry for my English)

What is format of the game? I will post pictures and may be saves and ask for help and advice sometimes. The first game will be with pacth 2.08. Since most players have 2.13 then game couldn't be competetive (when several players play and compare their saves). Actually, I would like play succession game, but before I should aprove myself as acceptable players for such type of game (otherwise, i can lead our empire to ruins in one nice turnset), moreover 2.08 isn't popular. So I will post the game progress and consultate with my "team" about leaders, plan and other global stuff.


Differences:
-in Warlords Golden age is considerably weaker than in BtS (so spiritual trait has higher value)

-in Warlords Caste system doesn't provide extra hammer, State property doesn't give 10% towards production

-in Warlords 2.08 AI is dumper than in Warlords 2.13 and in BtS (one of the few thing that make game easier)

-in Warlords Deity AI has discount downto 60% (in BtS it has downto 80%), AI settles towards you very agressive, AI's cities grow very fast, AI has a huge discount for upgrading downto 5%(!)

in Warlords intial happy cap in capital is equal four (not five as in BtS)

-in Warlords there is no Apostolic Palace (well, I just personally don't like it, esp. with that diplomatic victories)

-in Warlords very weak espionage (so, if one AIs runaway then we can say goodbye game)

-on other hand in Warlords we can see ALL enemy charts without espionage (so, this another thing that helps us)

-in Warlords we can build military academies with great generals immeadeitely, but they give only 25% towards militaty production (i don't know whether it is good, but say hallo to Imperialistic trait)

-in Warlords 2.08 trait Expansive gives +3 health and no + to worker prodution, in Warlords 2.13 this trait gives +2 health and +50% to worker production, in BtS this trait gives +2 health and +25% to worker production (so, this is another thing that makes game a little bit easier in Warlords)

-in Warlords 2.08 trait Organized doesn't hurry Factories, in Warlords 2.13 it does


Rules:
-No reloadings, no exploits etc.
-Only domitation or conquest win
-Not great starting position or we will take first one which has no gold, no double gems, no stone, no marble.
-No Incas

Game:
-Version: Warlords 2.08 (at least for first try)
-Difficulty: Deity
-Map: Island Sea
-Huts: On
-Other: Standard (vassals are On, all victory contions are enabled, water is normal etc.)
-Leader/Civ: We choose, to be discussed



About options: Well, actually Island Sea was first map that I played. I was crushed about 50 times at Deity and thought that this is because I am new in this game, but now I see that this is mainly because of game conditions itself. Moreover it's not possible to rush effectively at this map. Huts are On makes game more difficult since AI has more benefits from them. Vassals are broken in Warlords, so this also helps only AI.


About our possibilities: We should have strong diplomacy and use it actively. It's almost impossible to build earlier wonders without stone or marble. So, no pyramids, no oracle, no great wall (according to my experince it's easier to build GW, also it's nice to build pyramids with GE from GW) - we don't want rely on luck.

About leader: What traits do we want? Protecive (barbs will be great issue at this map), Organized (land massive is rather huge, and this trait greatly helps at any Deity, even without factories), Spiritual (for our diplomacy and later for warring).
Also we want Creative (for land grabbing), Philosophical (bulbing is nearly important in Warlords), Industrious (cheap forges, wonders and national wonders), Charismatic (early happines is even more important in Warlords), Expansive(??) (+3 heath and cheap granaries),

So, I heard that Frederick is very good for Warlords, I saw how people play with Hatty (also i heard what they said about she). Also there some nice leaders for this map: Napoleon, Ashoka, Ghandi, Brennus, Roosevolt, Shaka (?) (military and barracks with -20% maintance), Ramesess, Cathy (horse rush??), Saladin (traits, resourseless knights), Mansa Musa, Montezuma (spiritual + military + altar + resourseless Jaguars).

What do you think of leaders? Who will be best for noobish play (for me)?
I tend to Ashoka, Frederick and Monty. Please vote for three of these leaders, and I will chose the one with the highest score. Then I generate a map)

Okay, lets proceed. Since no one is voting then I choose Ahoka. Probably Gandhi would be better due to good early game. There is our start. It first that I get. It has one gems and...that all...probably bananas. Anyway I don't think that this is good start, so I picked it.
I've played two games already and two times was eaten by barbs, well not completely eaten, but they went and went...always. And stupid AIs don't settle near me. Aslo I lost a couple of archers attacking at good odds.

So, what should I research next? I think brozne working. I note that before I've played a couple of OCC Deity games and...and won Oracle (~2300 BC, AI usually build it at 2500-2100 BC) relatively easy with Gandhi, but I was very lucky with barbs. Since I want solid gameplay, then I want good defence from barbs, and after BW research hunting and archery and chop another worker and 4-5 archers. On other hand...we at the North-West of Sea, at coastal, this means that barbs will be less issue. What do you think about plan for the next 20-30 turns?

Pictures View attachment 291420

View attachment 291421

Save in Warlords 2.08 View attachment 291422

If someone will play this save (although I great doubt about this) then please put all comments and pictures in spoilers. I'll read them with pleasure later.

 

[Freakz]

wow, BTS sure made the game alot better

 

[Dirk1302]

^I basically agree but i feel BTS toned down deity too much. Should have added a Sid level as in Civ3 in BTS.

Warlords is a lot of fun to play and winning deity there is really a challenge.

 

[RedKi-rr]

I've choosed Ahoka eventually. Picked first generated start. And I don't know what should i do now)) Well, this not serioulsy. I know what should I do, but I would appreciate some advice. And I'm very interesting in some discussion.
Here I tend to grow to size 2 and build warrior-worker first. Settling on brown hill to South-West will be fine I think.

@Dirk1302 no Sid, please)) A couple of tries at some scenario was enough for me. I'm happy that I have only PtW normal. I think it need some golden mean for BtS Deity, like arithmetic average 70%=(80%+60%)/2 and nerfing a couple of things.

 

[kossin]

That's pretty ugly without any food visible.

If you want to gamble, try moving to the PH, but only move 1S1W at first as it will reveal 2 tiles. Without the game I have difficulty seeing the tiles near the fog so I'm not sure if moving is a good idea here.

 

[vicawoo]

Warrior first without inca? Ew.

 

[RedKi-rr]

I moved warrior NW and settler 1SW. It seems nothing interesting. I think it's better to settle here.
Warrior fisrt is bad because he will be eaten by barbs anyway? What usually one should do if he wants worker at size 2? To build barrack?

Now I begin to think that worker fisrt is better. With this jem mine we could research hunting and archery quite fast. And all archers should be veterans. So my plan is - settle at 1SW to initial place. Build worker, research bw->agriculture->hunting->achery. After worker build barack, at this moment worker is mining jems.

Also I started another game. Just to try protective trait. I was so admired! Probably it is my one the most successful games at Deity. There were a lot of barbs, on other hand i was lucky with rivals, they all are peaceful. And only bad boy is Toku. And he is not my neighbor. And he is warring with Freddy. I played up to 1 AD, have a lot of money (1000), about 90 bpt, 5 cities, and about 3 places for cities, 2 friendly ais, one almost ready GS, researching CivServ...And I'm not so backward as I expected. Probably pictures from that game will be more interesting than from this one.

 

[Dirk1302]

^Do you not have BTS?

 

[RedKi-rr]

I have BtS) I even played it several times, but mostly OCC for different tests.

There are two reasons why I'm playing Warlords now:

1) Long time ago I played civ1 and didn't understand how people win Emperor. I thought that it's unbeatable. But recentlyi tried it, then thought a little bit and read this forum and won it very easy. The same with this Warlords Deity, about a year ago I even could't imagine how to win it. Now I can imagine) So its kind of personal revenge - to prove myself that I can do it if I do things properly.

2) Sometimes I like to play a game due to its evolution. To win highest difficulty in civ1, then in civ2, then in some patch of civ3, then in some patch of civ4. I'm interesting in - what did players feel when patch 2.08 was the newest, how did they play it at highest difficuly...Well, this is concern only top games of their period, like civ1-4, diablo2, heroes of MM...And I usually chose patches or version that I have (or have first). After beating the highest difficulty I can say to myself - I did it, I "know all about it", so I can proceed further. But sometimes the game found out to be such interesting that you want to understand it deeper. For example, to win Emperor civ1 it's enough to read one-two arcticles and it's not necessary to understand the game, but to win OCC Emperor you should understand main conceptions of the game. The same thing is with civ4, it's quite easy to win usual Emperor (like after reading of couple of guides), but usual Deity requires rather deep understanding of the game.

Sorry, for trolling)

Actually I could play it offline. But I had an impression that Deity players got bored with usual BtS Deity and win it almost always. Also I hope that this thread can increase competetive interest in usual standard games.
But If someone could convince me that there are some exploitable strategy (like chopping in Civ4 Vanilla or diplomats in Civ1&2) that helps to win relatively easily the standard highest level, then I will be immediatiely retired)

With settings in the first post I see only one way to win - some intelligent gameplay step by step and deep understanding of the game.

 

[RedKi-rr]

Okay. Lets start the fisrt turnset. Up to 3280bc.

Delphi builds worker, worrior explorers NW.
Soo we met this guy
View attachment 291625


A little bit later we met this comrad
View attachment 291626

Our warrior was very lucky and aquired two techs from villages (Wheel and Agricult) and defeats bear.
View attachment 291627

When bronze working was done, we started hunting. Worker mined jems first (but now I think that it should farm rice first). After worker Delphi started barracks.
Mansa settled quite close.

Neighbor land
View attachment 291628

and
View attachment 291629


What do you think? I quess barbs won't be a great trouble here. Resourses are not good. Where should I settle the second city? Near cows (1W)? Should I continue beelining Archery?

Good news - saves in Warlords 2.08 can be opened in Warlords 2.13

Feel free to comment)

 

[Dirk1302]

@Red,
The reason i ask if you have BTS is because i think you should try BTS deity first. You go out here on an insanely difficult level, beginning warrior instead of worker first and ask me and others to take you seriously. I will if you can get to a reasonable position 1AD not that likely if you're a warrior first man, basic error imo.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

@Red,
The reason i ask if you have BTS is because i think you should try BTS deity first. You go out here on an insanely difficult level, beginning warrior instead of worker first and ask me and others to take you seriously. I will if you can get to a reasonable position 1AD not that likely if you're a warrior first man, basic error imo.

Ahhh, but you see, back in the day when Warlords 2.08 WAS the latest patch, what you are describing was not common wisdom. Many people got by with a Worker as a 2nd or 3rd build item.

I'm not supporting the delay of a Worker as a good choice, but I do see how he is recapturing a bit of history by playing this way.

 

[RedKi-rr]

@Dirk1302, Thank you. I tried Immortal Warlords and Deity BtS. Well, need some practice and to be more attentive, but the both difficulties are quite acceptable (at least is not hopeless)) ).
Could you please briefly check the next save (or pictures) of Saladin at 1AD and mark it from 1 to 10? The mark 5 means more or less playable (=reasonable position?). Deity, Warlords, Island_Sea, Standard

Cities
View attachment 291806

Capital
View attachment 291807

Support
View attachment 291808

Dimplomacy
View attachment 291809

Trade
View attachment 291810

BarbCity
View attachment 291811

Save
View attachment 291812

 

[Dirk1302]

I really had some difficulty reading the warlord screens. Can't see how much your total research is for instance and the tech trade screen seems extremely crude compared to Bug/BTS as well.So in hindsight i agree with the poster who said BTS is so much better, didn't remember everything looked so bleak in comparison on warlords.

As for playable i don't see more than 1 sorry. You have 93 bpt, should have been at least twice as much by 1 AD. And the empire looks undeveloped, Capital should have been between size 10 and 15 i feel working villages/hamlets and cottages right now. This save wouldn't cut it on BTS deity i feel, certainly not on warlord deity. Checkout my deity aw3 save i had to build tons of units there , i have no foreign trade routes and i still got (close) to 180 bpt 1 AD at 100 % iirc.

 

[Duckweed]

Warlord is harder than BTS in very hard maps, such as isolated start, or very poor start with warmongers aside. In those maps, it's almost not winnable. Because warlord AIs can research much faster in late era (Early 1600AD space colony is not a surprise) due to the higher bonus and human do not have espionage to catch up.

However, in most normal to strong starts, Warlord is easier than BTS since you could have cavaliers much earlier (before 500AD is very doable) than in BTS and AI will only be slightly faster to get the counter - Rifleman.

 

[Dirk1302]

^I have not seen such Warlords wins very often. However apart from early cavs Ais defend their cities very lightly so if you can build up a good attack force in time you can double land fast, at least in theory that is. But Ais research lightning fast on Warlords in the early game also. I have thought about trying it for some time, maybe after Deity AW3. But easier than BTS on a strong start? BTS is a walk in the park in that case.

 

[RedKi-rr]

Dirk1302 and Duckweed, thanks a lot for your answers! I don't understand for a long time whether Island_Sea is hard map for strong players. On one hand there are a lot of land to expand, a lot of rivers, on other hand barb issue and AI tending to grab much land (inluding potentially player's land)...

@ Dirk1302, how can my capital be at 10-15? AIs don't trade for resourses much, I also have very few of them. I even selfresearched calendar since I almost couldn't trade (only alpha and drama). In the beginning I built archers, so AI was runawaying in tech...Monarchy was rather late, iirc. What should give the happiness for size 10+? HR? Religion? Culture slide?
I try to not build early wonders since I don't want relying on them. Without resourses it seems to me that only Oracul with Ganhi is possible (at qiute good odds). In your game you was able to steal techs, in Warlords there are no such possibility.
It would be very interesting if after AW 3 you could play 1-2-3 quick test for Warlords at this map with setting above. For example, up to 500bc-1ad, without map regerating and without wonders, opponents are random, player's civ are any (but not Inca). Just to see how things may go. I don't think that it takes much time.

@Duckweed, Interesting note about cavalry. So, in Vanilla and Warlords is beelining Cavalry very strong thing? How many Cavalries should be in stack? And what should be done with culture defense? Just ignore it? Also grenadiers come faster than in BtS. Should one massively use them?
It's nice to see that in AIs cities usually about 2-5 defenders. Also I note that it's easier in Warlords to make AIs "pleased" with fair trading. Alpha can add +4 sometimes iirc, in BtS aplha/aestetics adds only 1 (didn't test this much, but this "fair trade" is notable).
One more question. What did you mean, that with poor starts game is almost not winnable? Does it include culture victory or nuking?

 

[Dirk1302]

^Ok checkout some of the links in my sig then. These are not AW games. I have > 200 bpt by 1 AD in most of them. I haven't checked too deeply into your save but if you could foretell you wouldn't be able to trade for monarchy you should have self researched it. You just need that extra happiness to grow your capital. I may give this one a try after AW3. Not sure however as i was a bit put out by the crudeness of the warlord screens. I still don't understand why you don't play BTS if you have it.

 

[Duckweed]

^I have not seen such Warlords wins very often. However apart from early cavs Ais defend their cities very lightly so if you can build up a good attack force in time you can double land fast, at least in theory that is. But Ais research lightning fast on Warlords in the early game also. I have thought about trying it for some time, maybe after Deity AW3. But easier than BTS on a strong start? BTS is a walk in the park in that case.

However, in most normal to strong starts, Warlord is easier than BTS since you could have cavaliers much earlier (before 500AD is very doable) than in BTS and AI will only be slightly faster to get the counter - Rifleman.

I mentioned "normal". The date when you can have Cui available in BTS is the date when you can have cav in warlord. Therefore, in a normal map you won't have much problem to have a cav stack ready before 1000AD to kill an AI. Warlord AI won't research much faster in early stage than BTS since there's no monopoly techs such as Alpha and Monarchy in BTS, therefore AIs will do a lot redundant research. Warlord AIs are also dump at whipping. Music is close to garbage since 1st GA requires 2 GPs. Liberalism is not important since it only saves you ~1000 beakers to MT.

I guess WOTM38 (1~2 month later, needs to be confirmed by BBP) could be deity level. Have interest in playing it?

 

[Duckweed]

@Duckweed, Interesting note about cavalry. So, in Vanilla and Warlords is beelining Cavalry very strong thing? How many Cavalries should be in stack? And what should be done with culture defense? Just ignore it? Also grenadiers come faster than in BtS. Should one massively use them?
It's nice to see that in AIs cities usually about 2-5 defenders. Also I note that it's easier in Warlords to make AIs "pleased" with fair trading. Alpha can add +4 sometimes iirc, in BtS aplha/aestetics adds only 1 (didn't test this much, but this "fair trade" is notable).
One more question. What did you mean, that with poor starts game is almost not winnable? Does it include culture victory or nuking?

Cavalry war is much stronger (probably the best war strategy) in Vanilla and Warlords for 2 main reasons.

1. It's achievable much earlier (500~1000AD) in Vanilla and Warlords than in BTS, only requires MT + Gunpowder
2. War weariness in Vanilla and Warlords is much severe than in BTS, if your war last more than 20 turns, your cities are going to be starved to death even with the cultural slider..

I usually launch the 1st war with 20~30 cavs, mostly depends on how big and how advance of your target. In 500~1000AD, you will be mostly against medieval units from AIs. You can take a city without removing the defense, therefore Cav war is swift. You should be able to take a city per turn and kill 1 AI in less than 10 turns.

With poor start, are you able to win culture or have the nuke around or 1700AD even 1600AD?