My take on BNW and things I'd still like to see improved

EgyptRaider

Warlord
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Apr 10, 2012
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142
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The Netherlands
After playing some matches of BNW I must say I'm really impressed.

It's because of this expansion the late-game finally became fun to play, normally I used to quit quite beforehand. BNW is in many aspects a major improvement and it is by far my favorite Civ experience so far!

But still there are some things that just.... don't seem right.... some things that seem small but could help alot with making the game feel really complete.

-First of all I think that the early game may have sacrifed too much in favor of the late-game. The fact that almost zero wars occur until the Renaissance (after that they come quite often) is just... boring..... If anything these periods should have more wars.. But since people say that declaring war by the AI has been improved so they only do it when it could benefit them seems reasonable there should be something else that would re-introduce war to the early game.

One thing I've been thinking about would be some kind of aggressive city-states or bandits that could build cities, simulating how warfare in the earlier periods wasn't per se between the big empires but more between the empires and their direct surroundings. The way bandits are now (just living in camps) isn't that satisfying for me at least.

-Second of all diplomacy, even though it was improved massively with the World Congress, still is a bit lacking. I find it annoying that I can't ask the other AI to leave my borders with their armies or stop spreading their religion like they do with us. Why don't we have this option?? For now I'm really following the Civ IV Diplo mod since it introduces some stuff I find essential. But I always find it a shame that we have to really on mods to make the game feel complete.

But besides that, the World Congress is in some ways not really working. Especially the host voting is just bugged. AI's that don't have enough votes to make themselves hosts should give their delegates to allies, thus giving themselves maybe a bigger boost in their world congress position than if they would vote for themselves and make sure that their arch enemy would take the seat and the extra delegates.

-Third there is a problem I've been annoyed by for such a long time: The end-game screen, and especially the replays, are so bland and boring it's ridiculous. In previous Civ games they were fun to watch and read but now all we got is a big list of messages and a map where the cultural borders expand over the ocean which completely ruins the world map! I really really really hope of everything that I'm noting that this gets improved. Especially the world map issue seems like such a small thing to change but it would make such a difference!!! If they could add the messages in the map screen at the same time so you could see the declarations of war happen as time flows by would be even better, but the world map is just the biggest thing ever... Besides that I have troubles (bugs?) getting my modded games in the Hall of Fame even though I can see in the game records them. Winning a game should be memorable since it could take weeks to do. Please make it memorable again like previous civ games by fixing the replays and the Hall of Fame!

And last I'd like to note some small issues I find along the way that seem like small things that could stand in the way of making this game as complete as possible.
-The fact that you can't create great workes after the "pool" is empty is just annoying, especially in games with 16 Civs.. it gets empty so fast! Either the amount of great works should be increased or they should introduce some generic artist and works as well. Similar to the artefacts but then fitting the great people.
-They way AI's value cities just seems strange. In my opinion they give/demand cities way too soon. Sometimes civs which have often invaded my lands and were easily repelled would still demand all my cities excluding the capitals. How crazy do they think I am?
-And furthermore I still see some AI's with quite allot of money. Shaka for example had like 12K when I was about to win a Diplomatic Victory. Had he used that coin for bribing city-states I would never have won the game that easily.
-For me in war the AI is still not that competitive, and I'm far from an competitive player. But just too often I still experience AI sending fleets or armies to my territory that could easily conquer cities if they just focused on them instead of swimming or walking around.

Well that's my list haha... Might be a bit big or seem whiney but overal these are just details fom preventing BNW to feel like a 10 outta 10 game for me. Hope some can relate to these issues :D
 
Good ideas, but for the diplomacy: When a civ converts one of your cities, you can ask them to stop spreading their religion
 
Good ideas, but for the diplomacy: When a civ converts one of your cities, you can ask them to stop spreading their religion

Yes but.

"Our missionaries go where they please, we can't help it you people do not know the real way of God" or whatever crap they give you when they simply refuse to spread missionaries.. same with other stuff

Just because you say "Move" does not mean they will "Move".
 
A couple things I miss from Civ IV;

I'd like the city radius marker back when you have a settler selected. Just makes it quick and easy to eyeball exactly where you want to settle the city.

Also, I would like the aircraft recon ability back. Honestly, I haven't noticed if this is available as an upgrade or not - but I don't believe so.
 
Good ideas, but for the diplomacy: When a civ converts one of your cities, you can ask them to stop spreading their religion

hmm.. maybe it's only when you yourself have a religion? In the last BNW games I wasn't able to get one.
 
hmm.. maybe it's only when you yourself have a religion? In the last BNW games I wasn't able to get one.

The option is not available if they are just wandering around your cities with missionaries/prophets. The moment they convert a city, you can go to them and tell them to stop sending missionaries and prophets (same place you tell them to stop spying). I believe you have to tell them that turn, though. If you wait, the option goes away.
 
hmm.. maybe it's only when you yourself have a religion? In the last BNW games I wasn't able to get one.

Yes, you have to have founded a religion to be given the option to get upset about other people's. This is the only way the computer recognises what "your" religion is, hence getting blue "city converted" icons even if your majority but non-native religion is replaced.

The AI works the same way - you can spread your religion to an AI that hasn't founded a religion of its own and you'll never have any negative diplomatic repercussions from doing so, and the AI can't ask you to stop, even if that same AI is actively spreading a different religion.

There's definitely work needed on the way the diplomacy system interacts with religion, both in this regard and in terms of modifying AI behaviour to accommodate the World Religion proposal.
 
Diplomacy:
I'd like to see more interaction between diplomacy and the cultural game. If I have the same Ideology as another civ and am Dominant over them, it better vote the way I want it to, including for World Leader.

Religion:
I'd like to see late Religion founding (Philosophy/Theocracy timeframe) become more viable. Probably change religious pressure from being a fixed number per city to something population related, so it's not that you can overwhelm people with your religion just by having a lot of cities.
 
As well as echoing others calls for the ability to tell the AI to move troops from our borders etc. there are 2 small UI improvements which would save me a lot of frustration:

1. When rebasing an air unit I'd like the icon to change colour if the new home base is out of range. Currently there's no indication, which means if it's too far when I click nothing happens and the rebase action is cancelled.

2. The ability on the cultural victory screen to search by incoming rather than outgoing influence for each civ. I actually can't believe this isn't in already as when I'm choosing an ideology or defending my culture I have to click through every single other civ to see how much influence they have with me.
 
1. When rebasing an air unit I'd like the icon to change colour if the new home base is out of range. Currently there's no indication, which means if it's too far when I click nothing happens and the rebase action is cancelled.

Cities in range have orange borders to their tile while 'rebase' is clicked, so you should already be able to see what's in and out of range.
 
I don't think you can ask the AI to stop digging up artifacts in your territory either
 
One thing I've been thinking about would be some kind of aggressive city-states or bandits that could build cities, simulating how warfare in the earlier periods wasn't per se between the big empires but more between the empires and their direct surroundings. The way bandits are now (just living in camps) isn't that satisfying for me at least.
I agree with this.

Here's an idea. For aggressive city states we could have... wait for it... aggressive city states.

One of the things I currently don't like is how many CSs are added by the default settings. It seems all out of whack, so much so that I consistently use custom games to decrease them to about 1/3 the "recommended" count.

If CSs were more aggressive and if you didn't get a huge dip penalty if you absorb them into your empire before, say, 100AD, then this would kill 2 birds with one stone.
 
Like I've said before, we need a means to invite the AI to spread their religion.

Yes, mostly small things like this, more diplomatic options. When it comes to religious spread/ archeology there should be a "further missionaries/archeologists inside my borders will be seen as a declaration of war" - option.

Some sort of vassal or "zone of influence" system

Some sort of casus belli system

All those things can be handled, but the current tools are a bit blunt and feels like juggling with boxing gloves on, sometimes.
 
Also, I would like the aircraft recon ability back. Honestly, I haven't noticed if this is available as an upgrade or not - but I don't believe so.

Aircraft recon is automatic. You see 6 tiles around the base your planes are in. Not sure if it extends when their range is upgraded.
 
I loved Civ II, Civ IV and all its expansions and I concur Civ V and its expansions break new ground for the franchise. The way to improvement:

Agreed that the Civ V closing screen took a disappointing step back. I can live without the animation but I used to pore over the accumulated stats in earlier versions of Civ, the same way I'd read sports stats or Harper's List.

The loss of the old diplomatic screen showing Civ relationships is a setback. Meet a new civ, it wants to be "friends," then I discover the civ is at odds with an "old friend" and I've unknowingly risked alienating that relationship.

A neighbor asks for a supply of a luxury resource. It's "yes" or "no." I have no way of checking to see what my supply state is. I believe I occasionally have had requests for my sole access to a resource.

The removal of air recon as an option seems a bit lame. If I fly an airplane near the borders of another civ - of course I'm going to assemble some idea of what's across the border.

The Diplomatic game still needs improvement. I've always been a gold hoarder - to give me the option to upgrade my army immediately or to build a city rapidly from the ground up without losing opportunities for such things as the Sydney Opera House, or Oxford University in the present version. Still, in the closing stages of the game, if I see another civ getting a lot of cs support, it still comes back to "bribery," Usually 3,000 will establish a cs ally, after that with periodic top ups it's too easy. Unless my game plan has been upset, I will have at least 50,000 gp to start making moves to ensure I won't take a loss on diplomacy.

Tourism, and Archaeology as a branch of tourism are "OK" additions but like the Science Victory they really amount to management of the economy, and allocating resources. None of these are very challenging and it would be nice to see them become "exciting" elements.

I am seldom attacked early in the game. Most of the wars I start begin with the invasion of other civs' missionaries. I give one warning. If that's not heeded next is denunciation and DoW. I don't like getting the warmonger "perq" for this response to "aggression." Moreover it seems a little extreme, that even the Holy City of any civ can simply be converted instantly by a foreign prophet or missionary. Whoops, there goes 3,000 years of tradition.

It was important to improve the late game which often was boring but I don't think it should have been done at the expense of the early game. And that long, long tech tree which plays significantly behind the historical time line had GOT to go. I play marathon/huge map. I have just watched the AI take 21 seconds to get through Poland's move. My hardware ain't cutting edge but it's way above the game specs. Last night between the slow AI and the long tech tree... rather than feeling Civ addiction, I discovered myself sitting with eyes half closed...failing to notice the enemy advancing on my exposed crossbow... clicking, clicking, and thinking half distractedly, "24 more turns to Dynamite."
 
I really wish that Civ 5 would add more `in your face` screens for important world events.

1. For example if two Civs go to war you should get at least a half screen size display of `Russia declares war on England!`. It could pop up at first like a scroll, then as a newspaper and and even as a photo-image on an ipod to show the later eras.

2. There should also be splash screens for important inventions discovered like: `Flight discovered by Ethiopia!" or `Nuclear weapons in the hands of India!"

3. I also liked the element in the early Civ game where you saw your victorious army marching through the enemy city.

4. Leaders clothing should change with the era, but still keep the original theme. Backgrounds should also change from Ancient to Modern. It never makes much sense to bump into a Civ in the ancient era with all the modern stuff in their room that hasn`t been invented yet!

5. Have Leader screen backgrounds change if they are doing badly in a war, so that if they have only one or two cities left and are under attack have the leader background show smoke outside or shake slightly from bombardment with shouts of soldiers and people running about in the background.

6. Finally, just make the wording more immersive. Instead of Player `Use Civ`, and make better use of the Leaders so they actually TALK all the other negotiation stuff, not just `Hello`, `goodbye` `i`m angry`.



All this would add to the longevity and flavour of the game. Meh.
 
Socratatus, I agree with all of your words. Instead of tons of civilizations I want few but well animated ones.
 
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