National Wonders...only two per city?

Helmling said:
Yeah, yeah, I disclaimered in the beginning.

And I never wanted ALL the wonders in one city. Just a whole bunch. :)

I don't think I've ever had "all" the wonders...except when I conquered them all. But then I haven't played Warlord or lower since Civ I.
you are seriously P whipped
 
I personally don't think that a cap of 2 national wonders per city will unduly effect my gameplay one bit, I am however merely confused as to why such a hard cap was necessary at all. As I stated above, it just seems that everything is balanced in such a way that few players would even want to place more than a couple of their wonders-small or great-in a single city. After all, the full benefits from most of these wonders will only come if you place them in cities with the appropriate specialisation. If they really felt they had to, a soft cap would have been the better way to go IMO-making each national wonder, after the first two, have a 'law of diminishing returns' effect (so, the first two grant +100% to a given area, then the third grants +90% and so on).
My personal feeling though, is that the cap will no longer exist once the game goes gold.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.
 
My bet is the cap will stay! I believe hereby they want to "encourage you even more to specialize your cities and really think and make a DECISION what to build where...
 
Stilgar08 said:
My bet is the cap will stay! I believe hereby they want to "encourage you even more to specialize your cities and really think and make a DECISION what to build where...[/QUOTE

I wish they'd let players make that decision.

Hey, maybe this is just a multiplayer restriction. Remember how you couldn't just burn a city down in one turn in multiplay on Conquests? Maybe it's something like that. I, like Aussie, can't think of a good reason for the cap.

But I don't care as long as there's no similar cap for Great Wonders...and even then, I'm still going to play the living hell out of Civ4. I might just have to conquer and pillage any cities that threaten my capital's position on the top 5 city list.

:)
 
Stilgar08 said:
My bet is the cap will stay! I believe hereby they want to "encourage you even more to specialize your cities and really think and make a DECISION what to build where...

There are better ways to do that than the hard cap. Perhaps the effectiveness of some National Wonders is related to some attributes of the city. Maybe some National Wonders take up space in the city radius. Maybe some National Wonder's effects propagate according to distance, so you'd want it smack dab in the middle of your civ. Maybe some National Wonders require the presence of some resource in the city radius (like the Iron Works in Civ3).

City specialization should have a compounding effect. Let's say there are two National Wonders that increase science by 50% (150% of the base). Having both should increase your total science by 125% (150% * 150% of the base). If you have 2 cities with 10 science base, building one National Wonder in each city will give you 30 total science (15 + 15), while building both in the same city will give you 33 total science (10 + 22.5). That sounds like a reason to stack all of your National Wonders in a single city, but it's just a reason to stack all your science National Wonders in a single city.

Due to health, it will be easier to get 3 cities to population 10 than to get 1 city to population 25 or 30. Since growth is (presumably) harder to come by, you'd probably be better off with a setup where one city has 3 scientists, another has 3 farmers, and a third has 3 merchants than you would be if you had 3 cities each with a scientist, farmer, and a merchant, due to the limited population growth and the compounding effect of specialization. Maybe the effects of specialists should be multiplicative instead of additive. Rather than a scientist increasing a city's beakers by 2, a single scientist might increase its beakers by 20% (120% of base). Two scientists increase it by 44% (120% * 120% = 144% of base), three scientists by 72%, etc.

Presumably, you won't have all of your cities with equal base science; one city might have a high base science rate (due to the Great Library), while another might have a high base commerce rate (due to being your only port), while a third might have a high diversity of religions (being near the border with 3 other nations).

In fact, it sounds like the National Wonders cap could make it harder to specialize cities because you might only be able to build two science National Wonders in one city of the available five science National Wonders. That assumes that there's more than two of each National Wonder type, of course, which may be false.

I'd make this even more of an effect by incorporating two of my favorite ideas: education and increased effectiveness of older improvements. For the former, you would have to make an investment into a citizen to turn it into a scientist. This would take time and perhaps money; it wouldn't be like previous Civ games where you could instantly change it. Thus, you would have less flexibility in what you could do. Education would propagate itself, so a University in a city with scientists would become more science-oriented. That University would then train scientists faster and more cheaply than other Universities, etc.

Secondly, the older an improvement is, the more effective it should be (like with culture generation in Civ3). A new Marketplace might boost commerce by 50%, but a Marketplace that has been around for 1000 years might boost it by 75%. Because of the compounding effects described above, you'd be crazy to have scientists in the trade city and merchants in the science city. It would be a huge waste. It would also compel you to choose early on how to allocate your limited resources. It's 1950 BC. Do you build a Marketplace now and then a Library in a particular city or vice versa? Your choice will have long-term ramifications. If you're playing the tech trailer who buys everything, you might choose to build all Marketplaces early on to become a financial juggernaut but a scientific weakling. Or vice versa. It would be a way of simulating the "acquired" leader traits that some civ fans would like (as opposed to the fixed leader traits that we will get).
 
Helmling said:
I wish they'd let players make that decision.

They have. Moddability, BABY!
 
apatheist said:
The difference is that you can only have one leader. However, you can have lots of cities. It would be more similar if you were only allowed to build 2 National Wonders in your whole civ. Not that I'd like that any better, because it's still a cap. The only gameplay numbers (as opposed to things like unit strengths) that should exist are 0, 1, and infinity.

There is one thing to think about however. Suppose your super-city, almost always the capitol because of, at least in the old days, no corruption, wasn't that great at production. If the AI has a super city that's really super, that one civ can pretty much dominate, whereas you may be frustrated to lose most if not all wonders to that civ or another one. So if super city nabs say pyramids and great library, then you KNOW that he's out of the running entirely (at least in the super-city). I'm not saying it's totally a good thing, if in fact I have the correct understanding, but what it would allow would be some sort of 'eras' so to speak. Naturally any city that got two great wonders and could build no more, would then pass the advantage baton onto someone else since they aren't in the wonder game anymore.

What would be pretty weird, OTOH, would be if you played against only 3 civs. You might have such a game end up with some of the wonders not even being built because of limits, or if built, then built too late as their effect may had already expired.

I probably don't have the right take on this, but even so it does show that there are instances where their changing the wonder rules can have a twist that is at least interesting to some degree.
 
Considering the concept of city specialization, it seems to me that a strategy involving building all wonders in one city would be dumb anyway in Civ IV.

You will build science wonders in science cities, military wonders in military cities etc.
 
Grey Fox said:
THIS IS STILL ONLY NATIONAL WONDERS (small wonders), NOT GREAT WONDERS!

I wouldn't be all too sure about that. At the rate of the speculation the original information could have meant just about anything at this point. If they are really "national" wonders, or what you might call wonders for your own nation (I know that's not what a small wonder is, but to rename it national wonders and it be exactly the same as small wonders does seem suspicious) then there's hardly a problem, is there? A wonder which is national, would never be in competition with other civs, because they would be peculiar to that nation. Small wonders, also, are buildable by all civs with no competition IIRC.

From what I've read I'm not too sure that rushing small wonders, or national wonders, if you must, is permissable, but if they are the being confined to two per city is really pretty negligible. During war I'm often popping to or three leaders a turn (with a military civ) and in such a case it would be even less worthy of notice.
 
This is going to make One-City-Challenge games impossible on the Vanilla version of Civ IV. But I would think that such an artificial limit should be trivial to modify. It's possibly in one of the top-level xml files I'd bet.
 
Flak said:
This is going to make One-City-Challenge games impossible on the Vanilla version of Civ IV. But I would think that such an artificial limit should be trivial to modify. It's possibly in one of the top-level xml files I'd bet.
for the love of god it's the small wonders that are limited to two per city

jesus
 
Last post for me in his thread, that's for sure! :rolleyes:

It's just small wonders! Not the great ones!!! Believe me! :D This is getting ridiculous, just like the discussion about the industrious trait and if wonder is a typo and should be "worker"... :rolleyes:

Personally this time I don't mind the hard-cap given here! Ok, you can argue about it, but IMO it makes sense: In a nation cities usually have a mind of their own and try to improve their city best!!! This is not possible in a game like civ, because YOU are in charge of everything! In real life there would be a competition between cities to get a national wonder. This is reflected by just given each 2 national wonders, not all of that!! I'm fine with that! :)
 
Martinus said:
But I want to build more than 2 Great Wonders in one city.

*cries and flips out*

Tell me what you didnt understand by NOT great wonders, only small wonders?
 
Stilgar08 said:
Last post for me in his thread, that's for sure! :rolleyes:

It's just small wonders! Not the great ones!!! Believe me! :D This is getting ridiculous, just like the discussion about the industrious trait and if wonder is a typo and should be "worker"... :rolleyes:

Yes, it is ridiculous that you guys think we don't know this.

WE ARE *SPECULATING* ABOUT THE POSSIBLE IMPACT OF A SIMILAR CAP ON GREAT WONDERS!
 
Charles 22 said:
There is one thing to think about however. Suppose your super-city, almost always the capitol because of, at least in the old days, no corruption, wasn't that great at production. If the AI has a super city that's really super, that one civ can pretty much dominate, whereas you may be frustrated to lose most if not all wonders to that civ or another one. So if super city nabs say pyramids and great library, then you KNOW that he's out of the running entirely (at least in the super-city). I'm not saying it's totally a good thing, if in fact I have the correct understanding, but what it would allow would be some sort of 'eras' so to speak. Naturally any city that got two great wonders and could build no more, would then pass the advantage baton onto someone else since they aren't in the wonder game anymore.

What would be pretty weird, OTOH, would be if you played against only 3 civs. You might have such a game end up with some of the wonders not even being built because of limits, or if built, then built too late as their effect may had already expired.

I probably don't have the right take on this, but even so it does show that there are instances where their changing the wonder rules can have a twist that is at least interesting to some degree.

Now, you might be on to something.

After all, why is it possible to beat the AI to wonders in Civ3? They have (at the higher difficulty levels) superior production and generally they can acquire technology much more easily than human players, so the AI should ALWAYS beat humans to wonders.

Why don't they?

Because they're stupid.

If the AI has been improved a great deal, some sort of cap may be necessary to keep the AI from dominating the wonder race.

Hmmm, interesting...

As for how such a cap would work in a small game, I don't care because I always play Huge with maximum number of players.

:)
 
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