Nationalism

[BobTheTerrible]

Recently there's been a bit of talk about making things happen with the nationalism tech, which I think is a great idea. IMO (and as somebody else suggested I think), this is when colonies and vassals should start falling apart. I don't know what sort of mechanism could be used, but I think after nationalism is discovered, vassals should no longer be an option (but colonies should), and current vassals and colonies should start to break free (even if they don't have the required % of master's assets), especially the ones that hate their masters.

Of course, Nationalism should also make your own cities less rebellious while making it harder to hold onto foreign cities. It's hard enough to hold onto foreign cities in the later stages of the game as it is, so I think there'd have to be some way to combat this. My suggestion would be allowing spies stationed in a newly captured city to reduce rebelliousness.

So, what else should come with nationalism?

 

[BobTheTerrible]

Hmm, well now that I look at it, nationalism comes pretty early in civ 4, I remembered it as being an industrial age tech.

 

[jdog5000]

For decreasing the effects of religion, I put in two cutoffs points (Liberalism and Scientific Method) so something similar could be done. Pre-nationalism things are fairly light, then there's kind of a middle period, and maybe the full effect doesn't switch on until Railroad or Industrialism or something later.

 

[MechatronicJazz]

usually u need astronomy before u can start building colonies, unless u play a map with lots of islands really close to your starting continent/island. astronomy isnt all that far behind nationalism, especially if u take into consideration the time it takes to bring setlers and other units across oceans and to get your colony thriving. i like the idea of nationalism having an efect and it should be put into the game, but the things will have to be balances accordingly or colonies wont be worth the effort. maybe astronomy can be pushed back a little on the tech tree.

i also like the idea with the vassals, but instead of dissabaling vassals for everyone, why not only make those civs with nationalism unable to become vassals, while leaving them the ability to take vassals. keeping the vassals would be harder and maybe a small negative would be added in relations with other countries that have nationalism

 

[orinsul]

i agree what what i said before.
cant quite remember what it was
but i remember that i thought it was brilliant
so thats what i'll go with

 

[orinsul]

I think that the invention of Nationalism should effect Revolution. Perhaps decrease the chance of a call for independance for cities connected to the Capital [On the same continent and not seperated by foreign soil.]
But increase it drasticly for Colonial cities. [Distant, unconnected cities.] But perhaps not island Cities which are connected to the capital by cultural borders [i.e. Would effect America but not Isle of Wight for B.E.]
Or atleast that Nationhood forcing its way into the world should have some effect towards distabilitising the Empires and consolidating the supportbase of the nations.

I went a found it, and hopefully quoted it. wee'll find out when this is posted if it worked or not.
Other factors would still have to be swinging to the bad to cause the call for independence, no ones ever wanted to free themselves just for the sake of being free [except possibly czechoslovakia but just look how that ended up.]
I do thing though that Nationalism should spur the dissienters on.

 

[BobTheTerrible]

usually u need astronomy before u can start building colonies, unless u play a map with lots of islands really close to your starting continent/island. astronomy isnt all that far behind nationalism, especially if u take into consideration the time it takes to bring setlers and other units across oceans and to get your colony thriving. i like the idea of nationalism having an efect and it should be put into the game, but the things will have to be balances accordingly or colonies wont be worth the effort. maybe astronomy can be pushed back a little on the tech tree.

Yeah, I noted that nationalism comes earlier than I thought in my second post. It wouldn't make sense to nerf colonies before they are even created.

 

[jdog5000]

As far was vassals go, I don't think I'll disable them. While they may not fit the exact Civ format, the US and USSR had what could be considered vassals during the cold war. Governments with fake independence or strong dependencies on others have not disappeared even though the concept of Nationalism is well entrenched in the world.

 

[orinsul]

One of the most nationalist wars in all of history was the march of French Republic across europe, both before and after the upsurp of Napoleon.
what were the Italian Republics or the Rhineland Confederation if not vassals of the French?
And a further thought, how long does a city remember that it once belong to another civ? As once the culture of a captured city has reach 100 of the new ruling classes civ does the game still know that the city used to french?

 

[jdog5000]

And a further thought, how long does a city remember that it once belong to another civ? As once the culture of a captured city has reach 100 of the new ruling classes civ does the game still know that the city used to french?

Yes, the other civ still has culture from the other civ even if the population % is 100% for someone else. Usually, if the other civ is still alive, it caps at 99%.

 

[Tboy]

Rhye's managed something like this with Rhye's and Fall - at around the time of nationalism, civs are more likely to respawn.

 

[MechatronicJazz]

ture, rhyes does that, but especially in the newer versions, rhyes and fall is a very glitchy game. There are lots of good ideas there,but i would rather stick with the current revolutions version than add stuff that causes bugs. However, if nationalism efects can be put into the game well, then it will be a great additon.

 

[Tboy]

It's not usually that buggy, just confusing - there are piles of factors that influence the stability system.
Still, Rhye is working on RFC random, and if that works some of it could be worked into Revolution, or visa versa.

 

[BobTheTerrible]

I really like the stability system from RFC, and also the independents feature.

 

[MechatronicJazz]

i also like the independents feature, though i sometimes wish u could conduct at least limited diplomacy with them. Independents could be a great feature to revolution.

 

[BobTheTerrible]

i also like the independents feature, though i sometimes wish u could conduct at least limited diplomacy with them. Independents could be a great feature to revolution.

Yeah, I think it would be awesome. So when a city requests independence rather than spawning a new civ or going barb, it would just become independent. Full-fledged empires collapsing into independent city states would be awesome too, and also if civs could re-appear to try to create an empire once again. All of that would probably be a pain to code though.

 

[MechatronicJazz]

i think the differnce between a civ colapsing into idepentents, vs new civs, depends on how strong a revolution is. One or two dissatisfied cities would become indepentant. similarly, if your entire empire is upset, but cities do not share common reason (some are sick, some have different religon, some are captured cities), then either lots of mini civs spawn, or independants. If there is a really wide spread factor (half civ is hindu, half budist), then u would end up with civil war and a full fledged civ rising up to take u down. a system like this, while complicated, would add even more variety to an already great mod.