Native American Longbowman 'rush'

[The Keeper]

This is more of a gambit for the Native American civ. It high risk/reward.

The key for this working is the Native American Protective train with the UB: totem pole.

First, start teching with mysticism while your warrior scouts for your first victim. Have him nab a worker because you really don't care what they think at this time anyway. After mysticism is finished, go after polytheism and priesthood. I can usually get Hinduism with the polytheism tech. Use this time to build a totem pole, barracks, and a second city with totem and barracks in it.

After priesthood is complete, tech writing then monarchy. Also build the oracle in your capital. Manage the capital so that the oracle doesn't finish until just after monarchy. With the free tech, take feudalism. Now you can go backfill hunting and archery for cheap. (or take it before)

Now a look at the situation:
The bad : Your economy isn't great because you don't have many worker techs - only agriculture which you started with. The only defense you have is warriors.
The good : You now have longbows starting with drill 3: drill 1 for being protective and 6 xp from barracks and totem pole. You can add an extra 2 xp if you take vassalage. Being philosophical, a prophet will pop very soon and you can make the Hindu shrine.

Now your nearest neighbor has been building up a nice core economy and doesn't have a lot of military at this time. Build up a nice set of longbows and go take it from him. This seems to work better than a sword rush because longbows have no counter. Also, once the city is taken, if it is kept, you now have the best defenders

From here, the options are endless. The biggest danger is overextending your empire due to the longbows that the AI can't touch. You have the ability to vassalize your enemy early and then give back cities you have taken. Code of Laws is only 1 tech away. The techs that you missed earlier cost less now because all the other AIs have them. Also, if some of the other AIs have alphabet, you can trade monarchy for some of the missed techs.

I have tried this strategy a few times to see if there are any flaws. The only flaw is the economy which can easily be overcome with time. I'd like to hear what some other people think.

 

[CHEESE!]

Buddhism comes with Meditation, not Polytheism, you mean hinduism

 

[Refar]

I would rather give a counter-promotion (Shock, Cover) than Drill III... Drill II and III only add Colateral resistence (useless in this scenario) and First Strike Chances. First strikes at low odds do not work well... So Drill II and a +25% odds promo might work better (Maybe even Drill I + Combat + 25% Promo), as it will actually increase your odds - higher chance for survival, less but more effective first strikes...

Another thing... other than leveraging your Trait/UB (which is a nice thing i.g.), where is the advantage over a 'conventional' Axe (Dog in that case) or Sword-rush ?

 

[Supr49er]

Buddhism comes with Meditation, not Polytheism, you mean hinduism

Unless he plays the custom game option of selecting religions.

 

[The Keeper]

Buddhism comes with Meditation, not Polytheism, you mean hinduism

Corrected.

I would rather give a counter-promotion (Shock, Cover) than Drill III... Drill II and III only add Colateral resistence (useless in this scenario) and First Strike Chances. First strikes at low odds do not work well... So Drill II and a +25% odds promo might work better (Maybe even Drill I + Combat + 25% Promo), as it will actually increase your odds - higher chance for survival, less but more effective first strikes...

Another thing... other than leveraging your Trait/UB (which is a nice thing i.g.), where is the advantage over a 'conventional' Axe (Dog in that case) or Sword-rush ?

I haven't tried it going with a shock promo. I may try that tomorrow. I wouldn't bother with a cover because the AI isn't anywhere close to longbows and it would take a really tough archer to matchup with the LB (city on a hill + culture/CG). What might be interesting is to have a GG settled running vassalage and instead of getting drill 4, get drill 2, combat 1, and shock.

The advantage over a axe/dog/sword rush is the LB has no counter and the LB gets an extra 3 xp with the addition of 2 free promos. I have needed fewer LB to achieve the same military conquest than I have with axes/chariots/swords.

 

[gettingfat]

This is not very effective if you go pure longbows, as they are too expensive as an attacker. I've tried that before. In fact if you see copper it's more effective doing CR2 axe rushes with feudalism, as they are way cheaper and kill melee units. Throwing in a few longbows to defend them on the field and as backup attackers. It's also not too bad an idea to have a few Drill III LB. They can finish off the injured units without a dent on their armors.

But if I can do the feudalism sling, I'd just go for the CS sling for early bureacracy instead.

 

[AfterShafter]

I'm with Gettingfat. As a lover of protective, and resourceless armies, you need a lot of catapults to make them work.

Oh, and, horse archers do a handy number on longbows unless you're *very* careful.

 

[mike p]

Coincidentally, I was playing a game last night where I pulled this off with Justinian. My second city site had marble so I finished off the Temple of Artemis while waiting for Monarchy to finish researching and finishing off the Oracle. Without Marble, I probably wouldn't have gone this route.

Things went well until I got to Paris, as De Gaulle founded it on a hill and built Stonehenge, so 60% culture. But I had built six chariots or so in my second city while waiting for Archery and Feudalism, so after sacrificing 5 of them, my LBs cleaned up the rest, barely.

Nice thing is that I was able to finish Alphabet, then get capitulation and a couple of techs. Then give back all of the crap cities, so my vassal is already +relations with me despite my declaring war.

Settings were Monarch/Highlands map, for reference.

I think it worked primarily because the French had only chariots and archers. If the opponent has access to copper or iron, then you probably need to wait for catapults.

 

[pfo]

I often play as Sitting Bull, and do a rush like this, except I go for crossbows as the 50% melee bonus makes them vastly more useful. Crossbows are the perfect offensive / defensive units of their time. Longbows are defense-only with that extra city defending ability. Generic crossbows can easily take macemen in the field, and thanks to totem pole / barracks / vassalage or theocracy, you can rest assured your crossbows will be anything but generic, making elephants, horses and some UU the only effective counters against them.

 

[AfterShafter]

I often play as Sitting Bull, and do a rush like this, except I go for crossbows as the 50% melee bonus makes them vastly more useful. Crossbows are the perfect offensive / defensive units of their time. Longbows are defense-only with that extra city defending ability. Generic crossbows can easily take macemen in the field, and thanks to totem pole / barracks / vassalage or theocracy, you can rest assured your crossbows will be anything but generic, making elephants and some UU the only effective counters against them.

I don't know... Swords are outright better against anything but axemen/macemen/crossbows in a city, in vritue of them having the same strength, a 10% natural city attack bonus, and being able to go up in the city attack line... And being cheaper to make. And requiring a lower tech. Oh, and those crossbowmen are very vulnerable to horse archers in the field, unlike the much cheaper spearmen. If you have iron and are attacking cities with nothing but crossbowmen, I think you're making your job harder. Bringing longbowmen along to defend the captured city after the fact would be smart (though that requires a later tech). So basically, the way I see it, if you have the resources for crossbowmen but are using nothing but crossbowmen, you should rethink your strategy. The reason why people mention longbowmen only rushes is because it requires no resources - crossbowmen require one of the most strategically vital of the era, which allows for a more diverse army when you have it.

Oh, just one other thought... You say "Crossbows are the perfect offensive / defensive unit of their time" - it's arguable that longbows are better defenders, and they are completely equal in attacking anything but melee units... And if you camp them on any hill they get a 25% bonus against anything that attacks them, not just melee. All for a lesser cost to make and no resource dependency. Crossbowmen really have always struck me as more a niche unit than a general purpose one - you only need a few to take out the melee units (which they slaughter), and then for everything else longbowmen do the same job for a less cost, while being better hill/city defenders.

 

[gettingfat]

If I have pulled the feudalism slingshot playing Native Americans, I'll immediately go for ironwork to see if I can mass build CR2 swords. It's like having cheaper praetorians, except that you just need to protect them on the field, but then you can throw in a couple of shock dog soldiers and level 3 longbows in the mix, and it's hard to counter.

 

[MarkM]

FYI the BTS GOTM (game of the month) BOTM2 that is about to end is Sitting Bull, and the spoilers threads in the GOTM forum have accounts of some players trying to take advantage of this for one kind of archery rush or another, as well as dog soldiers (what I chose)

 

[King of Town]

I second x-bows on the rush. Nothing but longbows can stop them. And other x-bows i guess.

 

[AfterShafter]

I second x-bows on the rush. Nothing but longbows can stop them. And other x-bows i guess.

And horse archers. Two chariots consistently kill one crossbow on the right terrain. Heck, protective archers in a city tend to do quite well against crossbows attacking.

 

[gettingfat]

I second x-bows on the rush. Nothing but longbows can stop them. And other x-bows i guess.

The only x-bow rush I'd do is the Cho-Ku-Nu rush. Besides, the Oracle has been burnt for the Feudalism in this case, so you can't pull the machinery slingshot. So by the time you can research IW, metalcasting and machinery and build enough x-bows, your opponents will mass build longbows and some will have horse archers already.

 

[DigitalBoy]

Longbow rush with the Native Americans is a novel idea, but I think Qin Shi Huang has an easier time beelining for a cho-ku-nu (sp?) rush with an Oracle->Metal Casting->Great Engineer->Machinery approach.

Of particular concern with a Feudalism slingshot is being able to research Monarchy and Writing before a rival finishes it first. Seems like way too much of a stretch to pull off consistently.

 

[King of Town]

The only x-bow rush I'd do is the Cho-Ku-Nu rush. Besides, the Oracle has been burnt for the Feudalism in this case, so you can't pull the machinery slingshot. So by the time you can research IW, metalcasting and machinery and build enough x-bows, your opponents will mass build longbows and some will have horse archers already.

Yeah i was saying go for tha machinery shot instead. Cho's are too ridiculous to unleash on my worlds so I avoid the chinese.

 

[Thanny]

I would rather give a counter-promotion (Shock, Cover) than Drill III... Drill II and III only add Colateral resistence (useless in this scenario) and First Strike Chances. First strikes at low odds do not work well...

I have to disagree with this. First strikes are the perfect thing to counter low odds. You always do damage, and sometimes significant damage. This prevents you from losing a stack of pre-catapult units without damaging the best defender at all.

I don't know if the whole longbow rush concept actually works well (I'm not a big fan of rushes in general, though I'll use them to secure my starting island, if necessary), but if you're doing it as a Protective, then Drill II & III are definitely the promotions of choice.

 

[MarkM]

I have to disagree with this. First strikes are the perfect thing to counter low odds. You always do damage, and sometimes significant damage. This prevents you from losing a stack of pre-catapult units without damaging the best defender at all.

You actually still aren't "guaranteed" to do damage. You just get more chances to do that damage before you start taking damage yourself, that's all. If you consistently "roll bad" you will still do no damage no matter how many first strike/drill promotions you have/

 

[bardolph]

I think Sitting Bull would be better served by launching an Archer choke, followed by a Dog Soldier rush. Much, much faster than a longbow rush. Besides, by the time longbows get into the picture, you might as well concentrate on catapults.