Naval Mod, from 4000 BC to 2000 AD

[GoodGame]

Civ4 aegis cruiser ( I think this is the one I had in mind) from SnafuSmith
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=125827&d=1146941164

Civ3 Aegis Destroyer
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=40234

 

[GoodGame]

Definitely yes. As more units? I dunno, probably not.

I'd go with making them tech dependent promotions myself.

Ah I see now! Very ingenious! So basically it would almost add another shallower coast, were you want smaller draft ships being used..

Another thing, do you think it would be beneficial to add a couple aircraft, say the Swordfish Torpedo bomber, and the Sea King Helicopter?

 

[GeneralMatt]

Civ4 aegis cruiser ( I think this is the one I had in mind) from SnafuSmith
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=125827&d=1146941164


Civ3 Aegis Destroyer
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=40234

Thanks twice.

Definitely yes. As more units? I dunno, probably not.

I'd go with making them tech dependent promotions myself.

That might work, I was kind of wanting to add that Swordfish Torpedo bomber and it could sink ship.. And the Sea King so I could justify putting a helicopter carrier in.

But maybe it would be better to have the Chopper just as a promotion..

 

[Dom Pedro II]

GeneralMatt, looks like you picked the right time to introduce this...

They've announced that Beyond the Sword will include on-map ocean trade routes to strengthen the role of the Navy!!

 

[GeneralMatt]

Sahweet! That caps it for me, I am going to buy BTS!

For Everyones Information, I have XML'ed and have the art (At least filler art) the Battleship/Heavy Cruiser Line.

I also added them as there own UNITCOMBAT as I was playing around with the promo's and wanted the Torpedos to get a huge bonus vs capital ships (Battleships, cruiser, carriers).

Here is the stats of the first two lines.

Tell me what you all think.

Name, CMBT, MOVE, COST, BOMB, CARRY, INTERCEPT
1. Battleship Line: Trireme,2,2,50,0,0,0->Gallease,3,2,65,1,0,0->War Galleon,7,4,85,5,0,0->Ship of the Line,14,5,120,10,0,0->Early Battleship,22,4,150,2,0,0->Predreadnought Battleship,28,5,170,2,0,0->Dreadnought,40,6,220,15,0->Battleship,48,7,250,20,5->Modern Battleship,52,7,270,20,7
2. Heavy Cruiser Line: Caravel,3,3,60,0,1,0->Brig,6,5,75,0,1,0->Heavy Frigate,10,6,95,5,1,0->Ironclad Frigate,16,6,120,0,1,0->Predreadnought Cruiser,23,7,160,1,1,0->WWI Cruiser,36,8,190,3,0,0-> Battlecruiser,42,9,245,15,5->AEGIS Cruiser,56,9,300,20,50

 

[Dom Pedro II]

So now subs will be able to function as commerce raiders as they were always meant to! Or as nuke missile carriers when you get to that point...

The good thing is that if the effect of sea trade routes is not particularly great, we can always mod it to be much more significant... tie it to resources or something... and thus make a navy absolutely critical (unless you're land-locked of course)

 

[ArdRaeiss]

How about:
1) Submarine-carrier
2) Submarine-transport
Is this possible?

 

[GeneralMatt]

So now subs will be able to function as commerce raiders as they were always meant to! Or as nuke missile carriers when you get to that point...

The good thing is that if the effect of sea trade routes is not particularly great, we can always mod it to be much more significant... tie it to resources or something... and thus make a navy absolutely critical (unless you're land-locked of course)

That was what I was thinking with the subs. Eg, in Civ 4 you could just guard your transports with battleships to fight subs, no more.
The Torpedo boat will also get the torpedo promotion to start, that was what destroyers were originally meat to counter (And later submarines).
Yeah, that will be cool, kind of like in Civ 2, Carry around nukes on your subs.

Trade Routes: Yes, I think though they should only be critical in certain circumstances, ie Britain/France. For a long while France did not really need to care about naval dominance as though they were not landlocked, they could get a lo of resources from Europe itself. But GB HAD to focus on it's navy to survive, it was vital to there survival.

How about:
1) Submarine-carrier
2) Submarine-transport
Is this possible?

Yep, both of those would be very possible. I may add them, but probably later. ATM I am looking more for ships that really prominent for a while, whether they fought anyone or not. Submarine-carriers/transports were not used a ton because by the time the technology caught up with the idea, it wasn't needed anymore..

 

[Dom Pedro II]

Well, yes, the trade routes should only be critical if you're dependent on a lot of overseas imports in the game. But I would also like to make it (eventually) important on the offensive as well when landing troops in overseas territory, and more than just worrying about the transports.

 

[GeneralMatt]

Well yes that too! That has to factor in to that GB/France example.
Napolean tried to attack the UK, but he lost a lot of warships and couldn't.
But in almost any Civ 4 world map, you could cross the channel, land the troops and be back before the enemies turn..
I think trade routes should give you a small movement bonus as it is familiar territory.
It would also be interesting if there is a way to add a ship (Eg a scout ship) that would give your ships a little extra movement..
Might be interesting.

 

[Dom Pedro II]

What I want to do is have a simple supply system... and you'd have to have a city to act as a staging point. So the new trade routes would be good because if you made a landing in Britain, for example, you'd have to take over a port quickly that would then be immediately connected to the greater empire. But if the British Navy shows up and chases you away, that new port would just wither on the vine (or rather it's troops stationed there would) being denied fresh supplies from elsewhere. So you'd have to have a sufficiently powerful navy to keep the lines of supply open.

 

[LingLinsRevenge]

I have given a lot of thought on how you might make Navies more important in Civ 4 besides just making new units. It is totally cool that trade routes will become visual in BtS. But that is not enough. The Navy on Navy fight is important, but Navies are super important during peace time as well.
One of the most important reasons for Navies is to control piracy. I think a couple of simple rules changes would make Navies very important.

1. Coastal Barb Cities spawn barb Ships (not build, this should be free). Every turn.... The seas should be filled with pirates!!!!! Ok, some logic to cap the the number is fine (maybe 3 per city), but the only way to get rid of pirates is to deal with the cities.

2. Any enemy or pirate ship in a City's fat cross cancels any water based bonus (lighthouse, Great Lighthouse, Harbor, Colosus, etc.)

3. Two enemy or barb ships in City's fat cross cancels ALL resources from water. Now, if a enemy ship is in the cross, the city moves to another space for resources. In real life, the fisher are in harbor, saying-- hell no, I am not going out there. (Also, there could be happiness problems for cities with pirates/enemy ships in fat cross)

To make strategic considerations important, ships take 50% if at sea for three turns, or are reduced to 10%. Ships will not be eliminated by this, but the fragile nature of ships out of range of supplies/friendly ports would be represented. (This might take an SDK mod)

An even cooler mod would be to say that enemy ships in city's fat cross could take resources from the water squares.... This would give the player a big incentive to build ships.....
Ships are expensive.. Navies are very expensive.. there needs to be a payoff for having them.

 

[GoodGame]

Your comments just jogged my mind about the European D-Day invasions and the need for port supplies. Operation Mulberry!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mulberry_Harbour
http://www.usmm.org/felknordday.html

I think that could be modded as a naval unit that can build a temporary 'city' in a coastal square. Effect: reduce or nullify unit supply costs for units operating in that tile, and perhaps provide a +10% heal rate for all adjacent tiles (including onto land).

What I want to do is have a simple supply system... and you'd have to have a city to act as a staging point. So the new trade routes would be good because if you made a landing in Britain, for example, you'd have to take over a port quickly that would then be immediately connected to the greater empire. But if the British Navy shows up and chases you away, that new port would just wither on the vine (or rather it's troops stationed there would) being denied fresh supplies from elsewhere. So you'd have to have a sufficiently powerful navy to keep the lines of supply open.

 

[GoodGame]

I like your #1, but your #2 and #3 seem extreme to me. Also consider that those suggestions basically just favor the attacker/blockader, and don't actually favor larger navies. As the base game is now, the attacker and defender both need a lot ships to prevent blockading around a city's tile area.

Arguably, a very fast blockader should be considered to have a larger zone of control if it doesn't cross the zone of control of a defender. So I could see the potential for #2 and #3 in that case only.

1. Coastal Barb Cities spawn barb Ships (not build, this should be free). Every turn.... The seas should be filled with pirates!!!!! Ok, some logic to cap the the number is fine (maybe 3 per city), but the only way to get rid of pirates is to deal with the cities.

2. Any enemy or pirate ship in a City's fat cross cancels any water based bonus (lighthouse, Great Lighthouse, Harbor, Colosus, etc.)

3. Two enemy or barb ships in City's fat cross cancels ALL resources from water. Now, if a enemy ship is in the cross, the city moves to another space for resources. In real life, the fisher are in harbor, saying-- hell no, I am not going out there. (Also, there could be happiness problems for cities with pirates/enemy ships in fat cross)

To make strategic considerations important, ships take 50% if at sea for three turns, or are reduced to 10%. Ships will not be eliminated by this, but the fragile nature of ships out of range of supplies/friendly ports would be represented. (This might take an SDK mod)

An even cooler mod would be to say that enemy ships in city's fat cross could take resources from the water squares.... This would give the player a big incentive to build ships.....
Ships are expensive.. Navies are very expensive.. there needs to be a payoff for having them.

 

[Dom Pedro II]

Well, I agree that there should be Barbarian pirate ships out there... (and there's going to be Privateers in BtS, so that's taken care of as well)... but what is really the main danger from piracy? Disrupting trade... so here again is why the on-map trade routes over water is, to me, the defining aspect in the importance of the Navy in this expansion and future modifications.

But that combined with the existing issue of losing a tile's yield when occupied by an enemy unit and the danger of pillaging water improvements will really make navies a significant factor.

This mod doesn't really make navies more signficant, it makes diversified fleets more significant, and I think that when coupled with the new feature coming out in the expansion will make navies not only necessary to have but more fun to build as well! Navies really aren't fun in the game now because they have a limited function and a limited number of units.

 

[GeneralMatt]

What I want to do is have a simple supply system... and you'd have to have a city to act as a staging point. So the new trade routes would be good because if you made a landing in Britain, for example, you'd have to take over a port quickly that would then be immediately connected to the greater empire. But if the British Navy shows up and chases you away, that new port would just wither on the vine (or rather it's troops stationed there would) being denied fresh supplies from elsewhere. So you'd have to have a sufficiently powerful navy to keep the lines of supply open.

That is a very interesting idea! So you have to keep your troops provisioned and such. So if say you as the French crossed the channel and conquered London, you would have to keep a trade route open (so no enemy ships sitting on it at the end of our turn) or else your troops would start losing health for every turn there is no rations. Now IF you survive long enough that the city is now under your control (No resistance) than if the route is blockaded, your troops will 'eat' food from the extra the city produces. If there is none they starve again.

This would go for land routes too, so you could siege cities.

Your comments just jogged my mind about the European D-Day invasions and the need for port supplies. Operation Mulberry!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mulberry_Harbour
http://www.usmm.org/felknordday.html

I think that could be modded as a naval unit that can build a temporary 'city' in a coastal square. Effect: reduce or nullify unit supply costs for units operating in that tile, and perhaps provide a +10% heal rate for all adjacent tiles (including onto land).

That would be very interesting! Though it would probably be easier to create a ship with a promotion that gives you those bonus (Plus it cannot leave coasts, though it can be loaded on a special ship).

I have given a lot of thought on how you might make Navies more important in Civ 4 besides just making new units. It is totally cool that trade routes will become visual in BtS. But that is not enough. The Navy on Navy fight is important, but Navies are super important during peace time as well.
One of the most important reasons for Navies is to control piracy. I think a couple of simple rules changes would make Navies very important.

1. Coastal Barb Cities spawn barb Ships (not build, this should be free). Every turn.... The seas should be filled with pirates!!!!! Ok, some logic to cap the the number is fine (maybe 3 per city), but the only way to get rid of pirates is to deal with the cities.

2. Any enemy or pirate ship in a City's fat cross cancels any water based bonus (lighthouse, Great Lighthouse, Harbor, Colosus, etc.)

3. Two enemy or barb ships in City's fat cross cancels ALL resources from water. Now, if a enemy ship is in the cross, the city moves to another space for resources. In real life, the fisher are in harbor, saying-- hell no, I am not going out there. (Also, there could be happiness problems for cities with pirates/enemy ships in fat cross)

To make strategic considerations important, ships take 50% if at sea for three turns, or are reduced to 10%. Ships will not be eliminated by this, but the fragile nature of ships out of range of supplies/friendly ports would be represented. (This might take an SDK mod)

An even cooler mod would be to say that enemy ships in city's fat cross could take resources from the water squares.... This would give the player a big incentive to build ships.....
Ships are expensive.. Navies are very expensive.. there needs to be a payoff for having them.

I like your #1, but your #2 and #3 seem extreme to me. Also consider that those suggestions basically just favor the attacker/blockader, and don't actually favor larger navies. As the base game is now, the attacker and defender both need a lot ships to prevent blockading around a city's tile area.

Arguably, a very fast blockader should be considered to have a larger zone of control if it doesn't cross the zone of control of a defender. So I could see the potential for #2 and #3 in that case only.

I agree that #1 is great, but remember that in #2 and #3 the deduction is calculated at the end of the turn, so if you drive those pirates off you will still get the bonus, I would cut it back a little ,so you do not lose everything, remember, even two ships could not patrol that large of an area stopping EVERYone from fishing.. Maybe just in the adjacent squares they hinder production.

Well, I agree that there should be Barbarian pirate ships out there... (and there's going to be Privateers in BtS, so that's taken care of as well)... but what is really the main danger from piracy? Disrupting trade... so here again is why the on-map trade routes over water is, to me, the defining aspect in the importance of the Navy in this expansion and future modifications.

But that combined with the existing issue of losing a tile's yield when occupied by an enemy unit and the danger of pillaging water improvements will really make navies a significant factor.

This mod doesn't really make navies more signficant, it makes diversified fleets more significant, and I think that when coupled with the new feature coming out in the expansion will make navies not only necessary to have but more fun to build as well! Navies really aren't fun in the game now because they have a limited function and a limited number of units.

That last paragraph is exactly what I started this for, to make it more fun. BUT if I can either learn Python/SDK, or get someone to help put some of these great ideas into it I am not against it at all.

Of course I am aiming at adding so many new ships already, that you may only get a real good use for them in a Marathon game. But that was what inspired me to start anyways.

I played a Marathon/Huge/Continents game, conquered/vassalized almost all of my continent and started on the other. But I had to have a huge navy for that.
To make it more interesting, I named all my ships, and the destroyers I built with Navigation 1/2 were cruisers, battleships like that were battlecruiser etc. But is just wasn't the same.

 

[Dom Pedro II]

That is a very interesting idea! So you have to keep your troops provisioned and such. So if say you as the French crossed the channel and conquered London, you would have to keep a trade route open (so no enemy ships sitting on it at the end of our turn) or else your troops would start losing health for every turn there is no rations. Now IF you survive long enough that the city is now under your control (No resistance) than if the route is blockaded, your troops will 'eat' food from the extra the city produces. If there is none they starve again.

Bingo. Nuff said. That's precisely what I intend to do.

This would go for land routes too, so you could siege cities.

True, I think, however, I think that with roads and combination of existing functions to determine a city's connection to the trade network, we already have the tools to make this a reality.

That last paragraph is exactly what I started this for, to make it more fun. BUT if I can either learn Python/SDK, or get someone to help put some of these great ideas into it I am not against it at all.

Well, what things do you want added that requires SDK or python changes?

Of course I am aiming at adding so many new ships already, that you may only get a real good use for them in a Marathon game. But that was what inspired me to start anyways.

I played a Marathon/Huge/Continents game, conquered/vassalized almost all of my continent and started on the other. But I had to have a huge navy for that.
To make it more interesting, I named all my ships, and the destroyers I built with Navigation 1/2 were cruisers, battleships like that were battlecruiser etc. But is just wasn't the same.

I actually want to make it so that map size changes the MP for units... this business about taking like 20 turns to cross the ocean on a Huge doesn't do it for me...

 

[GeneralMatt]

Bingo. Nuff said. That's precisely what I intend to do.

True, I think, however, I think that with roads and combination of existing functions to determine a city's connection to the trade network, we already have the tools to make this a reality.

True, I guess that haven't been really experimenting with too overboard XML yet..

Well, what things do you want added that requires SDK or python changes?

Well the supply system for starters. I had a few ideas, but I will have to remember them..

I actually want to make it so that map size changes the MP for units... this business about taking like 20 turns to cross the ocean on a Huge doesn't do it for me...

The actual average speed for the modern Ship will be 9, but before that it will range. In the WWII era Cruisers move 9, Battlecruiser/destroyers 8, Battleship, 7 etc so it has been upped. But having it change per size of map would be cool. Tell me if you get it.

A little update: All the Battleships, heavy/light cruisers and destroyers have been XML'ed, and I should update the first post (Which I will do in a moment).
They all have artwork to, except on early destroyer type ship.

( I have added/subtracted a few, I will list them in a couple minutes.)

 

[Dom Pedro II]

True, I guess that haven't been really experimenting with too overboard XML yet..

Well, this still requires some SDK work... the supply system is really the crux of it.

I've already been modding a yield storage system... basically, a levy is placed on all your cities each turn and the yield is collected and stored in a central stockpile. As I have it, food can be stored and carried over to the next turn, production can't, and commerce isn't levied at all... but that can all be easily changed by non-programmers as long as they can work with XML.

Cities then get rations of food or production.. so you can dump a lot of food into one city or a lot of production into another. There's a lot of modifiers, penalties, etc. to balance it out, but that's the size of it.

Future steps will include making it so that a unit can have a yield requirement per turn, a stored yield amount, and a yield requirement for movement. I really don't want to add other supplies besides food so that people aren't tearing their hair out... although mechanized units later require Fuel which is a yield I'm adding.

So units that remain connected to the network, and provided the network has sufficient yield to sustain them, will not suffer any ill effects. Units that are not, like units fortified in a city that has had its roads closed or destroyed by the enemy will have to rely on the city's supply. Pillage or occupy the surrounding Farms and that will be nearly impossible...

Additionally, I also want to make it so that you can have yield trade deals. In fact, in the early game, before you'll be able to trade gold, before Currency, you'll be able to trade food. This also gives a new role for vassals to play as the bread baskets of the master civ which can then convert its Farms into

Well the supply system for starters. I had a few ideas, but I will have to remember them..

Well, let me know.. I might be able to help.

The actual average speed for the modern Ship will be 9, but before that it will range. In the WWII era Cruisers move 9, Battlecruiser/destroyers 8, Battleship, 7 etc so it has been upped. But having it change per size of map would be cool. Tell me if you get it.

Well, the problem is that if you set unit movement rates for a standard map, then it's too much on small maps and too little on large ones. When one considers how much is changed by map size, it seems silly that there's no modifier for movement. Basically, anything I'd do would just be a modifier. So a Caravel might not get any bonus if you set it so that a Large map gets +25% movement. Nor would any of the land units change... but for some of those later-era ships, you'd get 1 or 2 extra MP without even factoring in promotions or techs.

 

[GeneralMatt]

Well, this still requires some SDK work... the supply system is really the crux of it.

I've already been modding a yield storage system... basically, a levy is placed on all your cities each turn and the yield is collected and stored in a central stockpile. As I have it, food can be stored and carried over to the next turn, production can't, and commerce isn't levied at all... but that can all be easily changed by non-programmers as long as they can work with XML.

Cities then get rations of food or production.. so you can dump a lot of food into one city or a lot of production into another. There's a lot of modifiers, penalties, etc. to balance it out, but that's the size of it.

Future steps will include making it so that a unit can have a yield requirement per turn, a stored yield amount, and a yield requirement for movement. I really don't want to add other supplies besides food so that people aren't tearing their hair out... although mechanized units later require Fuel which is a yield I'm adding.

So units that remain connected to the network, and provided the network has sufficient yield to sustain them, will not suffer any ill effects. Units that are not, like units fortified in a city that has had its roads closed or destroyed by the enemy will have to rely on the city's supply. Pillage or occupy the surrounding Farms and that will be nearly impossible...

Additionally, I also want to make it so that you can have yield trade deals. In fact, in the early game, before you'll be able to trade gold, before Currency, you'll be able to trade food. This also gives a new role for vassals to play as the bread baskets of the master civ which can then convert its Farms into.

Wow, is that that quanative resources thing that you guys are discussing on the other thread? That would be a cool addition..

Well, let me know.. I might be able to help.

Yeah, I guess it has to wait for 59 +more days.

Well, the problem is that if you set unit movement rates for a standard map, then it's too much on small maps and too little on large ones. When one considers how much is changed by map size, it seems silly that there's no modifier for movement. Basically, anything I'd do would just be a modifier. So a Caravel might not get any bonus if you set it so that a Large map gets +25% movement. Nor would any of the land units change... but for some of those later-era ships, you'd get 1 or 2 extra MP without even factoring in promotions or techs.

Yes, I see what you mean. But I had to get them going faster so I could have cruiser sailing faster than battleships which because of superior engines sail faster than their predecessors..