Naval Mod, from 4000 BC to 2000 AD

[GeneralMatt]

I, as a big naval history fan, wanted to make a personal mod (as I am on dial-up and uploading huge stuff would be a pain) that add a lot of new naval units through the entire game.

Now I know that naval units are not normally very useful, but I figure if there us more incentive to see some of these sweet units in game, even if there use is not really needed...
Also each civ will have a naval UU.
Anyways, this is what I have come up with so far.

Not all of these ships are done (As a model) but I may be able to do some.

The different 'lines' of ships.

Updated 24/05/07
Name, CMBT, MOVE, COST, BOMB, CARRY, INTERCEPT
1. Battleship Line: Trireme,2,2,50,0,0,0->Gallease,3,2,65,1,0,0->War Galleon,7,4,85,5,0,0->Ship of the Line,14,5,120,10,0,0->Early Battleship,22,4,150,2,0,0->Predreadnought Battleship,28,5,170,2,0,0->Dreadnought,40,6,220,15,0->Battleship,48,7,250,20,5->Modern Battleship,52,7,270,20,7
2. Heavy Cruiser Line: Caravel,3,3,60,0,1,0->Brig,6,5,75,0,1,0->Heavy Frigate,10,6,95,5,1,0->Ironclad Frigate,16,6,120,0,1,0->Predreadnought Cruiser,23,7,160,1,1,0->WWI Cruiser,32,8,190,3,0,0-> Battlecruiser,42,9,245,15,0,5->AEGIS Cruiser,56,9,300,20,0,50
3. Light Cruiser Line: Caravel,3,3,60,0,1,0->Sailing Corvette,5,6,70,0,0,0->Frigate,8,7,85,0,0,0->Ironclad Frigate,16,6,120,0,1,0->Predreadnought Cruiser,23,7,160,1,1,0->WWI Cruiser,32,8,190,3,0,0->WWII Cruiser,38,10,215,5,0,10->AEGIS Cruiser,56,9,300,20,0,50
4. Destroyer Line: Predreadnought Destroyer,19,6,125,0,0,0 WWI Destroyer,26,7,150,0,0,0->WWII Destroyer,30,8,180,3,0,20->Guided Missile Destroyer,52,9,290,18,0,60
5. Light ship Line: Predreadnought Torpedo Boat,14,5,115,0,0,0->WWI Torpedo Boat,20,6,130,0,0,0->Patrol Torpedo Boat,22,7,135,0,0,0 Coastal Defence Vessel,
6. Carrier Line: WWII Carrier,20,6,245,0,2,10->Nuclear Carrier,20,9,320,3,15; Escort Carrier;16,8,200,0,1,0,Helicopter Carrier
7. Armed Merchantman: Privateer->Armed Merchantman->Armed Sidewheeler->Armed Steamer;Q-Ship
8. Submarine Line: WWI U-boat,22,6,160,0,1,0-> WWII Submarine,26,7,180,0,1,0->Nuclear Submarine,36,9,325,0,1,15
9.Anti-Submarine Line: WWII Corvette,20,6,120,0,0,0->Modern Anti-Sub Frigate,42,9,150,5,0,45
10.Transport Line: Galley,1,2,35,0,1,0->Cog,1,3,55,0,2,0->Galleon,3,4,65,0,3,0->Merchantman,6,5,75,0,3,0->Sidewheeler,6,6,90,0,2,0->Steamer,12,8,120,0,3,0->Transport
11. Explorations Line: Canoe-> Caravel-> Exploration ship (Discovery).
12. Monitor Line: Monitor->Predreadnought Monitor


"->" Mean upgrades, ";" Mean also, so they do not upgrade (Ie Escort Carriers do not upgrade to Helicopter carriers though they both are in the carrier class.)

UU's

American: American Frigate, (USS Constitution), Replaces Heavy Frigate, +25% vs Frigates.
Arabian: Corsair Galley, Replaces Frigate, Carries 1, (If possible) While aboard a unit gains the Amphibious promotion, Cannot leave the coast, +1 movement, -15% cost.
Aztec: Need research
Carthaginan: Trade Ship, Replaces Galley, +1 Cargo space,
Celts: Corracle, Replaces Canoe, +1 cargo space for Scouts, Explorers, Missionairies, Great People, Cannot leave the Coast. -15% cost
Chinese: Junk, Replaces Galleon, +1 cargo space, +15% vs Frigates
Egyptian: Reed Boat, Replaces Canoe, +1 movement, Cannot leave the Coast, -25% cost.
English: British Ship of the Line (HMS Victory), Replaces Ship of the Line, Starts with Drill I and Drill II.
French: French Early Battleship (Courbet), Replaces Early Battleship, +1 movement, starts with Flanking I
German: Pocket Battleship (Bismark), Replaces WWII Battleship, +2 Movement, +4 PWR
Greek:Galley type ship, Replaces galley, starts with Combat I, Flanking I, +15% vs trireme
Incan: Need research
Indian: Need research
Japan: Super Battleship (Yamato), Replaces WWII Battleship, -1 Movement, +25% vs WWII Battleship
Korean: Turtle Ship, Replaces Frigate, Ignores first strikes, -1 movement, +4 PWR
Malinese: Need research
Mongols: Conscripted Transport, Replaces Galley, -50% cost, Cannot leave the coast.
Ottomans:Heavy Galleass, Replaces Galleass, +2 PWR, +1 movement
Persian:Need research
Romans: Quinereme, replaces Trireme, +1 cargo, +15% vs Triremes, Cannot leave the coast, +50% vs Galleys, +10% cost.
Russians: Russian Nuclear Submarine (Typhoon) , Replaces Nuclear Submarine, 25% vs Nuclear Submarine, -10% cost, +3 movement
Spanish: Treasure Galleon, Replaces Galleon, +1 cargo, +2 PWR, -1 movement
Vilkings: Longboat, replaces Trireme, +1 cargo, +75% vs galleys.
Zulu: Need research


I've also had an idea for a couple buildings .

Small Shipyard, Large shipyard.

First off, all ships in the 5, 9, 10 and 12 groups have there cost tripled and the rest have there cost multiplied by 10.

Small shipyards triple your rate of production on ships (If possible) and are required for Large Shipyard. Large shipyards brings up production of ships (with the amount added by the Small shipyard included) to %1000 (or 10x). Small Shipyards require Astronomy, Large Shipyards require Chemistry. Any ship that is (using history as a guideline) before Astronomy does not have it's cost multiplied.

What this is supposed to symbolize is this. Not all cities had the equipment to build ships at a great speed. They still could but it would take infinitely longer.
Of course, I have no idea if the AI will use this pr it would make them build even less ships, but it is worth a try.

And I have a few ideas about retiring ships as target practice (to give new ship experience, maybe a immediate boost of 3 XP points immediately as a Warlord), or as Training ship (as a military instructor kind of) or even maybe as an attraction (+1 gold, +1 culture).

All ideas of course, any thoughts? Note that only a small portion of this is already in XML, I am just looking for ideas..
Edit: 27/05/07 Combined Carrier and Light Carrier Lines, added Armed Merchantman line.

 

[Jerrymander]

Perhaps the Japanese UU needs more power, +50% to Battleships, +25% to Cruisers, maybe?
-1 movement is a HUGE disadvantage. Any other battleship can outrun it.


Also, looks like a very interesting mod! I hope you get a better internet connection and can upload it sometime. Maybe from the library?

 

[GeneralMatt]

No, this whole area is dial up, no high speed yet.

Hmm, you maybe be right about the Japanese battleship, I was wondering about it myself. So maybe %50 vs battleships, as really none of these are SUPER powerful methinks.

I forgot to post this.

1. bonus vs 3,4
2. bonus vs 3,4,10
3. bonus vs 4,6,9,10
4 bonus vs 5,7,8
5 bonus vs 1,2,3
8. bonus vs 1,2,3,6
9. bonus vs 8

It is variable to change and situation, but it is tor represent armament and such. As battleship would have bigger guns that a destroyer..

 

[frostie89]

i dont mean to nitpick or anything, and i realise your're running out of names and stuff, but the bismark was a liiiiitle bigger than a pocket battleship! pocket battleships were the heavily armed cruisers the germans built due to the restrictions placed on them, they could only have 6 battleships and sixx cruisers.
Good luck, id really like to see how this turns out!

 

[GoodGame]

Sounds like a comprehensive idea, and I agree, one is needed. I'd recommend not adding UU's until the basic system is balanced and in place though.

Will there be a bit of a paper-rock-scissors aspect to the unit types / promotions?

At the least, you could borrow the one from the Empire Earth RTS (Galleys vs. Frigates vs. Catapult/Bombard ships). Essentially it's like crusiers vs. destroyers vs. battleships.

Intelligent promotions like the melee units have, should be a high priority in design, I think. Like Anti-Capital Ship (torpedoes), Search Aircraft, High Speed, Anti-Aircraft, RADAR, 16 inch guns, etc..

 

[GeneralMatt]

i dont mean to nitpick or anything, and i realise your're running out of names and stuff, but the bismark was a liiiiitle bigger than a pocket battleship! pocket battleships were the heavily armed cruisers the germans built due to the restrictions placed on them, they could only have 6 battleships and sixx cruisers.
Good luck, id really like to see how this turns out!

Ok, I wasn't too sure what an example would be. I knew that the Germans had built a superior type battleship that had a lot less tonnage to stay in the limits at the time (Basically a battleCruiser) and I figure that the Bismark was one of them,

Sounds like a comprehensive idea, and I agree, one is needed. I'd recommend not adding UU's until the basic system is balanced and in place though.

Will there be a bit of a paper-rock-scissors aspect to the unit types / promotions?

At the least, you could borrow the one from the Empire Earth RTS (Galleys vs. Frigates vs. Catapult/Bombard ships). Essentially it's like crusiers vs. destroyers vs. battleships.

Intelligent promotions like the melee units have, should be a high priority in design, I think. Like Anti-Capital Ship (torpedoes), Search Aircraft, High Speed, Anti-Aircraft, RADAR, 16 inch guns, etc..

Yeah, I see what you mean, get it working first then add the UU's.

Yep, paper, scissor rock thing as that was the way it was in real life. Dreadnoughts beat Cruiser and destroyers, destroyers first came around to beat torpedo boats which in turn beat Capital ships.

I was thinking of a couple promotions but I sure wouldn't mind expanding.

So Torpedo boats would start with the promotion 'Torpedoes' (Which I personally like better than Anti-Capital, though that is not bads. ), the same with Submarines.
Corvettes and WWII Destroyers would start with 'depth charges' to take out subs.
They would also start with Sonar that lets them See subs (if possible) and ignore first strikes. The first strike bit is because Subs would get a first strike vs most ships, but if they had sonar that would be negated. So you could equip a WW II battleship with sonar and depth charges to take out subs.

So it is basically.

Battleships beat Cruisers, Destroyers
Cruisers beat Destroyers
Destroyers beat torpedo boats, Anti submarine ships
Torpedo boats beat Battleships, cruiser etc.

So you really have to keep a mixed fleet or you could get wiped out easily..

 

[frostie89]

Ok, I wasn't too sure what an example would be. I knew that the Germans had built a superior type battleship that had a lot less tonnage to stay in the limits at the time (Basically a battleCruiser) and I figure that the Bismark was one of them,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pocket_battleship
an article about the pocket battleship "deutschland" class. The tirpitz and bismarck were much larger full-on battleships. If anything they'd fit into the same class as the yamoto. what about u-boats?

 

[GeneralMatt]

Ok, thanks. I just put the name there more for reference (as this list was at first just for me. )

Yeah, U-boats are in the Submarine line, U-boat, Submarine, Nuclear sub..


Edit: Added my ideas for strength, movement, cost and bombardment rate.

 

[GoodGame]

Did some google research:

1. Mali (not much, especially considering that the modern state is land locked, and only needs riverine boats operated by the army---total of 3 river boats).
The Malinese empire technically includes modern states to the coast, like Guinea, but they're navally about the same----some transport barges and patrol craft. Historically not a naval power either.
Perhaps give them a workboat that gets +1 gold per tile (or +10&#37, to keep with their civ theme.

2. India: An experienced and large modern navy.
Standout ships: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INS_Viraat
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukanya_Class_patrol_craft
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INS_Jalashva
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajput_class_destroyer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delhi_class_destroyer

historically: long naval tradition, not always successful. Maratha empire during 1700's seems like a good model for a sail UU. Apparently they kept Europeans out of India for awhile.



Some promotions ideas (taking inspiration from wikipedia):

In naval warfare, the key is to detect the enemy while avoiding detection. Much time and effort is spent to deny the enemy the chance to detect your forces.

Suggests successive promotions for increasing range of detection, +1, +1, +1, and for masking detection -1, -1. Sounds like a SDK mod to me.

The presence of land and the bottom topology of an area compress the battle space, limit the opportunities to maneuver, make it easier for an enemy to predict the location of the fleet and make the detection of enemy forces more difficult. In shallow waters, the detection of submarines and mines is especially problematic.

Suggests that a coastal vs. sea/ocean 'guerilla' type promotion. +25% coast and +25% ocean.

The key threat in modern naval combat is the missile. This can be delivered from surface, subsurface or air units. With missile speeds ranging up to Mach 4 the engagement time may be only seconds.

Suggests a long line of first strike promotions starting with Rocketry, but maybe even 2 and 3 tile bombardments to go with a 2 or 3 tile recon ability.

Rome was never much of a seafaring nation, but it had to learn, and learn fast, in the Punic Wars with Carthage, and developed the technique of grappling and boarding enemy ships with soldiers. hundreds of ships were involved, many of them quinqueremes mounting catapults and fighting towers.

Ramming and /or boarding: a Combat I type promotion.
Also Quinquereme as the first battleship and ship able to reduce city defenses.

In the 7th century Arab fleets begin to make an appearance, raiding Sicily in 652, and defeating the Byzantine Navy in 655. Constantinople is saved at the Battle of Syllaeum in 678 by the invention of Greek fire, an early form of flamethrower that is devastating to the ships in the besieging fleet. This was just the first of many encounters.

improved battleship---collateral damage.

The late Middle Ages was important as the time of the development of the cogs and caravels, ships capable of surviving the tough conditions of the open ocean, with enough backup systems and crew expertise to make long voyages routine. In addition, they grew from 100 tons to 300 tons displacement, enough to carry cannons as armament and still have space left over for profitable cargo.

Largest 'caravel', a carrack:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Harry

Trafalgar ushered in the Pax Britannica of the 19th century, marked by general peace in the world's oceans, under the ensigns of the Royal Navy. But the period was one of intensive experimentation with new technology; steam power for ships appeared in the 1810s, improved metallurgy and machining technique produced larger and deadlier guns, and the development of explosive shells, capable of demolishing a wooden ship at a single blow, in turn required the addition of iron armour.

Wood vs. Iron is ignored in vanilla! A +50% vs. wood, and classifications of wood, iron, steel, and god knows what would be another good analog to archer, axeman, spearman, and horse. Maybe this would be a better way of establishing rock-paper-scissors than battleship, galley/crusier, frigate/destroyer

 

[TheLastOne36]

and the Zulu?

 

[GeneralMatt]

Did some google research:

1. Mali (not much, especially considering that the modern state is land locked, and only needs riverine boats operated by the army---total of 3 river boats).
The Malinese empire technically includes modern states to the coast, like Guinea, but they're navally about the same----some transport barges and patrol craft. Historically not a naval power either.
Perhaps give them a workboat that gets +1 gold per tile (or +10%), to keep with their civ theme.

2. India: An experienced and large modern navy.
Standout ships: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INS_Viraat
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukanya_Class_patrol_craft
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INS_Jalashva
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajput_class_destroyer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delhi_class_destroyer

historically: long naval tradition, not always successful. Maratha empire during 1700's seems like a good model for a sail UU. Apparently they kept Europeans out of India for ahile.

Great thanks!!!

So basically the Malinese would get a unique improvement instead? Hmm, maybe we could just give them a workboat that moves faster (Maybe 4 moves?)

Thanks for this stuff about India! I haven't got a chance to research much myself..

I started the XML a little added a couple of the ships.

If you see any cool artwork that would fit tell me,

This is what I need.

A better WWII Battleship, Heavy Frigate (Though it should be a simple reskin)
Torpedo boat, Patrol Torpedo boat, Coastal defence vessel,, either a Nuclear carrier or a WWII carrier, Helicopter carrier, U-boat, Modern Frigate, canoe (Should be simple if there isn't one already), exploration ship and predreadnought monitor.

 

[GoodGame]

You mean actual units (models and xml stats)? Or just filler art?

 

[GoodGame]

I almost think just prior to WW2 should be the model for a battleship, since WW2 showed that battleships were being outclassed by carriers.

Maybe your model for a stock BB should be: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_George_V_class_battleship_%281939)

This would be the FG of the near future:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:LittoralCombatShip-ArtistsRendering.jpg

Gulf war frigate:
http://www.milnet.com/pentagon/navy/ffg7three.jpg

EDIT: Fixed links

I think for an Aegis Frigate, Sevomod has one.

 

[GeneralMatt]

and the Zulu?

That I haven't figured yet, I do not know much of there history. It would probably be something replacing a canoe.

You mean actual units (models and xml stats)? Or just filler art?

Either or.

I almost think just prior to WW2 should be the model for a battleship, since WW2 showed that battleships were being outclassed by carriers.

Maybe your model for a stock BB should be: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_George_V_class_battleship_(1939)

That is a good idea! I will have to get around to creating one of those someday if someone else hasn't. That way I can use (Is it the Iowa class?) the default one for the modern era.

This would be the FG of the near future:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:LittoralCombatShip-ArtistsRendering.jpg

Gulf war frigate: http://images.google.com/imgres?img...images?q=gulf+war+frigate&svnum=10&um=1&hl=en

I think for an Aegis Frigate, Sevomod has one.

Thanks for the pics! Looks cool.
Do you have the Sevomod? Those things are huge and I do not want to have to download it with dial-up just to get one ship..


Lots of cool ideas! I saw your thoughts on promotions and I love them.

Suggests successive promotions for increasing range of detection, +1, +1, +1, and for masking detection -1, -1. Sounds like a SDK mod to me.

Yes it does.. I will have to look into that! Maybe as a later thing.

Suggests that a coastal vs. sea/ocean 'guerilla' type promotion. +25% coast and +25% ocean.

That is a cool idea! I wonder if you could use it so the whole stack gets the bonus, as you wouldn't hog information that would help you win and save your mens lives.

Suggests a long line of first strike promotions starting with Rocketry, but maybe even 2 and 3 tile bombardments to go with a 2 or 3 tile recon ability.

Hmm, so it would help improve bombardment also? I know that the Allies used rockets On D-Day with the shore bombardment..

Ramming and /or boarding: a Combat I type promotion.
Also Quinquereme as the first battleship and ship able to reduce city defenses.

That would be a cool extra effect for the Roman Unique Ship to differentiate a lot from a trireme.

improved battleship---collateral damage.

Maybe that could be part of the Greeks Unique Ships specially ability?

Largest 'caravel', a carrack:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Harry

Yep, I was considering adding a cog that I downloaded here as a filler between the Galley and the Galleon. Maybe 1 PWR, 3 moves, carries 2, cannot leave the coast?

Wood vs. Iron is ignored in vanilla! A +50% vs. wood, and classifications of wood, iron, steel, and god knows what would be another good analog to archer, axeman, spearman, and horse. Maybe this would be a better way of establishing rock-paper-scissors than battleship, galley/crusier, frigate/destroyer

Cement!

Maybe somewhat that Wood/Iron/Steel would be good! I do not want to get rid of the battleship beats destroyer, beats, submarine, beats battleship thing as that is what happened a lot in WWII. The reason is is that the wood/iron/steel is dependent on the armour type (For all that matter here really) while the other way with battleships beating destroyers etc depend on the weapons and mobility. That is why I think a hybrid would be best!

So all wooden vessels would start with a "wood" promo, all Iron would start with a "iron" promo and same with steel (Steel promo).
And wooden ships, after the Tech 'Steel' would be allowed to be given the 'Iron' promo I guess.
The Iron Promo gets +%15 vs wood, - 1 movement? Steel gets +%15 vs Iron.

Oh I have thought of a cool name. 'The Naval Expansion Programme. '..

 

[GoodGame]

On the coastal guerilla promotion idea, it'd be more of an intrinsic promotion I think. It comes more from some ships being relatively more maneuverable OR harder to detect in coastal waters (e.g. small draft ships and submarines).
Most modern fleets with good electronic warfare would excel at open sea water, and do better finding subs there.

Thinking some more, I guess I'd make only the coastal a guerilla type promotion, and assume deep water is the default.
Ships that can't hack deep water due to waves won't attempt to go to the deep sea anyway, no?

 

[Jerrymander]

Yeah, I hate seeing some ****** with a white water kayak in the middle of the ocean.

 

[GoodGame]

Yeah, I hate seeing some ****** with a white water kayak in the middle of the ocean.

(10 chars)

 

[GeneralMatt]

On the coastal guerilla promotion idea, it'd be more of an intrinsic promotion I think. It comes more from some ships being relatively more maneuverable OR harder to detect in coastal waters (e.g. small draft ships and submarines).
Most modern fleets with good electronic warfare would excel at open sea water, and do better finding subs there.

Thinking some more, I guess I'd make only the coastal a guerilla type promotion, and assume deep water is the default.
Ships that can't hack deep water due to waves won't attempt to go to the deep sea anyway, no?

Very true, so you are saying give this to smaller ships, and subs so they will have a bonus in coastal waters where they are harder to detect?

Yeah, I hate seeing some ****** with a white water kayak in the middle of the ocean.

(10 chars)

Very true..

 

[GoodGame]

Yes, though the bonus of small draft ships is to the retain full mobility in coastal waters, while deep draft ships will lose mobility. The main advantage is using the natural terrain to channelize the deep draft ships (like high maneuver units trapping less maneuverable units in a cul-de-sac. It's somewhat scaleable too. For instance in classic times, all ships are relatively small draft, but some smaller than others and can get even closer to the coast.

Very true, so you are saying give this to smaller ships, and subs so they will have a bonus in coastal waters where they are harder to detect?

 

[GeneralMatt]

Ah I see now! Very ingenious! So basically it would almost add another shallower coast, were you want smaller draft ships being used..

Another thing, do you think it would be beneficial to add a couple aircraft, say the Swordfish Torpedo bomber, and the Sea King Helicopter?