Navy Brainstorming Thread

[Emptiness]

Technically, Privateers were ships that had government issued Letters of Marque, and still flew the flag of the nation that contracted them. It might be more appropriate for Privateers to be AlwaysHostile while Pirates are Hidden Nationality. It would of course require having some Barbarian Pirates in order to make the HN mean much.

Those letters of marque authorized the vessel to prey upon ships belonging to enemies of the state that issued them, not any foreign ship. Of course, the line between Privateer and Pirate was often blurred, with some using their letter of marque essentially as a cover for their not-so-legal maritime raiding.

I think the Privateer/Pirate distinction is being used in FfH2 more to set apart the special status of the Lanun version of the unit (or in the case of a shift to promotion, the promotion), rather than describing a precise distinction between the legal status of the ships in question. Technically, a 'pirate' ship can raid the shipping of its own nation, so proper implementation of such would require that the ship become a barbarian unit after being built - which unit I doubt would actually see much use (except in xp exploit schemes). Giving both the regular and Lanun-versions of the ship (or promotion) HN makes more sense to me, rather than trying to make some sort of distinction with Always Hostile.

As for Barbarian Pirates, I certainly support that whole-heartedly. And I also like the idea of moving to a promotion (naturally) for the sake of making Lanun pirate ships less identifiably Lanun.

 

[Nor'easter]

@Magister and Emptiness:

You're both undoubtedly right about the history. I guess Firaxis wasn't entirely historically accurate by making privateers HN in the first place. They did the same thing back in Civ 3, as I recall.

 

[Tasunke]

I like the Idea of Pirate ships to be able to regain HN status in Pirate coves, although technically I think having the Pirate/Privateer promotion would simply allow one to regain HN status in National Waters, or at least in a City or Pirate Cove. I mean, the Crew Promotion itself wouldn't be removed by declaring nationality (I wouldn't think), especially if its decided to give a gold cost to the aquisition of the promotion. I also like the Idea of non-Lanun vessels to have a chance to be commandeered by Lanun pirates if in a Pirate Cove.

Has anyone thought about renaming Man O' War to either Gunship or Ship of the Line and creating a new and powerful National Unit ship, requiring both Gunpowder AND Mithril (and maybe fire/air mana) to be a sort of Magical fantasy battleship.

 

[Morkonan]

There’s been a lot of discussion about naval AI in various threads on these forums – the bug thread, the balance issues thread, the AI feedback thread. Someone recently started a thread with suggestions specifically for the Man O’ War unit.

I thought it might be helpful to brainstorm more generally about navies in FfH, and I’m going to toss out a few ideas to get things started.

Bts versus FfH

I think it’s pretty generally agreed that the AI in BtS uses navies pretty well. A lot of people commenting on these forums have pointed that one of the big differences in FfH is the existence of the crew promotions, which the AI seems not to understand or use well. Turns out there are other differences, too.

Part of what I’m going to suggest, therefore, is moving back in the direction of naval units in BtS.....


So, those are some preliminary ideas. Jump in with your thoughts. Hope the team will find a thread this like useful.

(Emphasis mine)

I think that's a good idea. However, what has to be done is to re-create the naval units in BTS by giving FFH fantasy analogues of those units.

So, a "submarine" (Which I've never seen any Civ AI use effectively, btw) would be some sort of sea monster for one civ, a mechanical contraption for another, etc.. An Aircraft carrier needs aircraft, right? Well, FFH doesn't have any "Air craft" analogues except some elementals and griffons. So, not many civs could make use of them. I suppose it could be allowed to have hawks stationed on it or something.

The point is - Just find a direct analogue of the BTS naval units and stick with that if you want the AI code to use them with the same efficiency. It's more of a "translation" job than a design job. Find what "fits" in the FFH milieu that the AI has been shown to understand in BTS and "port" it over.

Going beyond a simple 1:1 translation of BTS naval units to FFH2 fantasy types would defeat the purpose. It doesn't take anything fancy.. just hit the nail with the hammer, imo.

 

[Nor'easter]

As for Barbarian Pirates, I certainly support that whole-heartedly. And I also like the idea of moving to a promotion (naturally) for the sake of making Lanun pirate ships less identifiably Lanun.

I'm pretty sure there was a BtS modcomp that included Barbarian Pirates, so it's definitely doable. Would be a nice addition, I agree.