need help w/ Gallic Sword

[darski]

I've read several post that show that people really like the GS - I do too overall but I find that they have a very short shelf life and then you get a downgrade.

My problem is that I can never get enough of them to be of use. In my current game, I went straight to BW/IW so i could get a head start on producing them. Trouble is I would have to give up expansion (settlers) to build the GS and their cost takes too much production time in many cities.

What am I missing? I would like to use them well but I don't seem to be able to do so. Any suggestions ?

I play at wussy warlord usually although my current game is at regent.

 

[vmxa]

I don't know about trying to use them, in that I would probably try to not use them. I would prefer to avoid a GA in a peaceful game at Warlord. Either not build them or keep them out of action as long as I could.

That said, it is all about expansion. The more you expnd the more you can build troops of whatever type. GS should be good till the middle ages, so no big rush. If you find the AI is getting to the middle ages too quickly, play without barbs or with rampaging barbs.

No barbs means no huts and that will slow them some. Rampaging should mean the same as they will be trying to kill barbs. Unlike highest levels they do not start with plenty of units for the task. Now race to your GS and whack those barbs for gold and promotions.

 

[darski]

Well I already got my GA by building the pyramids

I am now into the middle ages and I managed to build only 9 GS in the time I had. I wanted a goodly force for a war against Liz but now I am having to wait for Knights to have sufficient forces for a fair sized conflict. Taking so long to get to warring means I now have more cities to take.

 

[vmxa]

There you go, the wonder probably set up very far back. Middle Ages, but what date?

Edit: I looked at Roadmap and it shows I start on Feudalism in 90BC, so probably in middle ages by 50-60AD. 9 GS at that point would be strong as Liz would likely still using spears and swords. If you 9GS are grouped togehter for attack. If you are 700AD or later then 9GS is not so strong and Liz probably is as strong as you and may have pikes. Now, if you managed to get a GS army, then you canmake her suffer.

 

[darski]

There you go, the wonder probably set up very far back. Middle Ages, but what date?

Edit: I looked at Roadmap and it shows I start on Feudalism in 90BC, so probably in middle ages by 50-60AD. 9 GS at that point would be strong as Liz would likely still using spears and swords. If you 9GS are grouped togehter for attack. If you are 700AD or later then 9GS is not so strong and Liz probably is as strong as you and may have pikes. Now, if you managed to get a GS army, then you canmake her suffer.

I have an army waiting to fill but since I'm working on Chivalry I was going to wait for knights. I have to start soon though or the momentum will be long gone. It might be worth it to use the GS in the army

I just checked and it is 400 AD -might have missed my chance. Might be time to try again.

 

[CKS]

To get more use out of gallic swords, I'd recommend the following.

First, build lots of warriors.
Cut off research after iron working so you have cash for upgrades.
Upgrade a lot.
Don't learn feudalism until the last possible moment. Note that if you haven't had a golden age, you can continue to build gallic swords after learning feudalism, but the game will often switch your builds to MDI for you, so you have to be vigilant and make sure to check your builds each turn.

Additionally, I suspect that you are waiting for an attack force that is larger than it needs to be. I struggle with this myself. If your opponent has only spears, you can probably get started with a stack of 5 or 6 GS on warlord or regent, even allowing for horrible RNG.

 

[vmxa]

darski the GS would be good, if you got it while still in the AA. If you were at war and it was already in the Middle Age, then it depends. How badly do I need that amry and how long till I could not just have knights, but fill the army with them.

A knight army is far superior as it has better offense and defense and will never be attacked, if green, till bombers. A GS army is going to go down in value as the game progresses. Still there are times when you just are better off with an army in the field now.

I to feel that often players wait for a stronger force than needed in the early AA. I am refering to Regent or lower games.

 

[Puppeteer]

I just had a short-lived GS experience in emperor. My expansion was sped by being agricultural and getting first 4 cities on lakes, but otherwise had no food bonuses early. I slowed my development some by grabbing low-food lands before grasslands to capture an extra horse and iron and two more luxuries.

5 AI are on the continent with me, so their tech pace was very brisk. Also my military buildup was slowed a few turns by a barb uprising in my flank lands and a superbarb horse that took out 3-4 warriors and a vet GS. My neighbor was Ragnar and my goal was to eliminate him with GS before he reached Invention. Was almost ready to attack him, had 8 GS and was replacing paper defenses with spears in my rather wide empire with lots of coastal exposure when neighboring-island Hittites dropped a warrior by an empty city in an obvious sneak attack bid. Was able to cover the city and chase him around, but had to wait 3 turns before the option to boot him, he declared of course. So I had to delay the Viking war and kick off my GA taking out his warrior and a town he had plopped at my border.

Was also beelining for Chivalry for knights to finish taking the continent, and the AI tech pace had everyone at Feudalism long before I was ready to attack.

Since my GA had been kicked off and I reached Feudalism just as I was attacking Ragnar (didn't even bother to wait until Hittites were ready to talk) I couldn't build any more GS and my builds switched to med inf. Very frustrating. I was all jazzed about having fast units for the entire conquest.

So I had a handful of GS, Vikings had pikes and big cities, and I could only make slow units (or 2-attack horses ). The Viking conquest is taking much longer than planned.

Yeah, GS are rather frustrating.

 

[darski]

See, they need a cosmic timing effect and if you miss the portal youse is in difficulty The do seem to be a tricky item to use well.

 

[Lanzelot]

Yes, the Gallic Swordsman is useful only during a short time window. If you miss that window, the opportunity is gone. For that reason I like the Iroquois much better. They are agricultural like the Celts, and the Mounted Warrior has quite similar stats. (The extra defense of the GS will never be needed on Warlord...) But the MW can be upgraded to Knight and Cavalry and thus remains useful right up to the beginning of the Industrial Age (when Riflemen become available)! So the MW is much better than the GS, and on top of it: it is even cheaper...


But anyway, you were asking about the GS. Try the following for a successful GS strategy:

• Forget about Iron Working. Instead go for Republic asap. (Read the Military Academy article on the "Slingshot", if necessary.) On Warlord with a decent start position (one food bonus and otherwise average land) you should be a Republic by 1500BC.
• During that time, the capital pumps out settlers, while all new towns build barracks and then veteran warriors.
• Upon reaching Republic, you set research to 0% and rake in hundreds of gold, while still building warriors.
• Even on Warlord some AI should come up with Iron Working around this time. Trade it for Republic and upgrade a few dozen warriors... (Apparently you need early scouting warriors/curraghs to have all contacts by now.)
• If the AI turns out to be a bunch of slow-pokes and no one has Iron Working yet by the time you think you are about ready, then just research it quickly yourself. As a well-developed Republic it should be doable in 4 turns. In any case, you should have several dozen GS, long before anyone has Pikemen...

For an example of that strategy see Megalou's, Neo666's, templar_x's and my game in GOTM91.
(Though in PtW this strategy does not work as well as in C3C: in PtW the Republic Slingshot is not possible (meaning it takes much longer to get out of Despotism and therefore less gold for upgrades) and the Celts are not agricultural (meaning the initial REX is much slower). On top of that, in GOTM91 that strategy was made even more difficult by giving us Carthage and Rome as neighbors... The GS works extremely well against spearmen, but if you face Carthago's Numidian Mercenaries, Roman Legions or Greek Hoplites in large numbers, the losses will be quite severe...)

Anyway, if you are interested in learning more about this, we could turn this into a Training Day Game, perhaps in a similar format as Sirian's old classic (see the rules) so that everyone can get some hands-on experience?! "TDG -- Making the Most out of the Gallic Swordsman", what do you think?

 

[darski]

this sounds like good information and I like the TDG plan. However I would be a lurker in any TDG. I just don't have what it takes to work with others on a game. I would love to see this done though.

Your ideas promise a better return than what I have so far.
TY.

 

[Aabraxan]

. . . .Anyway, if you are interested in learning more about this, we could turn this into a Training Day Game, perhaps in a similar format as Sirian's old classic (see the rules) so that everyone can get some hands-on experience?! "TDG -- Making the Most out of the Gallic Swordsman", what do you think?

this sounds like good information and I like the TDG plan. However I would be a lurker in any TDG. . . .

Should this turn into a TDG, I'll be glad to add it to the archive.

 

[Theov]

Should this turn into a TDG, I'll be glad to add it to the archive.

Sure. Where do I sign up.

 

[Aabraxan]

Good question. Just as an informal poll: Is there enough interest here to warrant a Celtic TDG?

Anyone who's interested, speak up. I'll be glad to get the ball rolling.

 

[Puppeteer]

I'm interested in a TDG. I play decently well I think on Emperor, but I still learn some pretty basic things every now and then. Plus I like posting screenshots. And I'm assuming this would be a lower difficulty setting, and oddly enough I don't think I play as well on lower settings because I'm used to relying on the AI being productive and strong for my usual plays.

I did try an SG before and didn't finish; I don't have the time to dedicate to the game for the long haul, but perhaps that is less of a problem if a TDG participant flakes out.

 

[creamcheese]

What difficulty level will this be on? I might be up for a monarch or higher game, I don't do early warmongering very often and could use some practice.

 

[splunge the 2nd]

I'd be interested in a TDG. I've seen the Celts as a favorite for 100K cultrual victories which I haven't managed to pull off (played a low level game as Celts and accidentally hit domination limit). Using the feudalism government for pop rushing wirh the growth of an ag civ is something I'd like to learn. When I tried it, I was always chasing unhappiness.

I've played one succession game- are TDG's like SG's but with the more experienced players teaching more?

 

[Lanzelot]

However I would be a lurker in any TDG. I just don't have what it takes to work with others on a game.

Well, if we use "Sirian's Format", you would not have to work with others. Just play your set of ten turns, hand it in for review, learn something from the comments you get and also look at how the others have played these same ten turns. I think this is the best way of improving ones game! Learning by doing and getting feedback on your turns from an experienced player.

What difficulty level will this be on? I might be up for a monarch or higher game, I don't do early warmongering very often and could use some practice.

As this was originally darski's request for help, I had thought about a lower difficulty level, e.g. Warlord or Regent. So darski, how about it? Jump over your shadow and give it a try! I'm sure you won't regret it.

However, if you really don't want to participate, I'd say we just go with whatever the majority feels comfortable with?
Also I suggest we don't follow Sirian's rules exactly. For example we could slow down a bit and play one turnset every weekend (don't really have too much time to devote to Civ during the workdays).

Atm we have like 4-5 prospects, right? How about I'll wait a couple more days and then roll a few start positions and create a thread for this in the SG forum next weekend?

 

[splunge the 2nd]

I'm in.
Can anyone link me to a guide for Sirian's Format. Again, I've played SG but not a TDG.

 

[Puppeteer]

I'm in. I'll play any level...sure I can learn in any.