Need help with early game tech...

[gumpie]

I've recently been playing a few monarch games (huge, pangea, 9 other civs) with the Germans and have noticed that I'm always behind in tech. When I was playing as the Persians (large, random land, 7 others civs), i don't seem to encounter this problem (fast expansion + early war with Immortals might be the reason i suppose...).

I find that for the Germans, i am completely unable to keep up with the AI civs, be it in popping cities, military size or tech level. Furthermore, whenever i want to buy stuff from people, they always demand HUGE (entire treasury of 3-400 + 3-8 GPT) payoffs just to sell me any tech (be it basic techs or middle-level techs [ancient era still of cause]).

Is there any way to keep up with the AI with regards to tech? I haven't succeeded in building the GL in all my attempts so far, even when i pre-build it, as the AI civs get Lit earlier or converted over to GL when some other AI civ builds one of the other wonders. This is SUPER demoralising, especially when i'm like 2-3 turns away from it, and will have Lit in about the same time. (in some instances, civs on other continents get Lit WAAAAAAY before me. ) I've tried incorporating some of the strategies I've read from the war academy and some of the threads here, but are still unable to make it work for my Germans. What really puzzles me is that for me, the Persians are nearly a breeze compared to the Germans...sigh...

edit: forgot to mention that no matter how i tweak the science slider for Germans, it doesn't seem to have any impact what-so-ever on my research. Takes me just as long to research a tech at 2 beakers per turn and 15 beakers per turn...

 

[Dwarven Zerker]

Could be a couple of different things. Some basics on science...

1. Money = research. Increase your income as much as possible by roading all tiles that are being worked (not neccessarily all tiles in your city radius). Build lots of cities and build them on rivers - two reasons. A) rivers produce additional income. B) rivers allow larger populations without an aqueduct (same applies to fresh water lakes).

2. Science works like your production box. Each tech costs a different amount of beakers. Always research at maximum rate possible (even if the time estimate says 40 turns for 10% research or 90% research.) EVen though it may take 40 turns now, in 10 turns you might have 2 or 3 more towns producing more money. Adjust your science slider when you get to about 3 to 5 turns left to increase your income since your "science box" is almost full.

3. Research techs the AI tends not to. I haven't seen many posts on which techs the AI tends to research but go for something like mathematics or similar "empty" type techs (empty = no units, city improvements or wonder) and trade for other techs the AI has. The reason the AI is bancrupting you in tech trading is most likely because a civ has a monopoly on the tech you want. Try waiting for one or two other civs to get it and the price will come down. Not all techs will be valued the same - i.e. Mathematics, Construction are more expensive than Pottery or the Polytheism.

4. Keep at it and experiment. Try doing things differently. You'll get the hang of it.

5. Welcome to the board!

 

[gumpie]

1. Doing that, though it isn't as fast as with Persian...sigh... Got to get used to less efficient workers.

2. I always check to slider every turn, and it hasn't changed one bit... and i already have 7-8 cities by this point...

3. So my prioritising of getting GL asap is the wrong? Will try to go for less desirable techs then. Sure hope i can still get GL...

4. Trying my best

5. Thanks

 

[Dwarven Zerker]

Problem with getting the GL with Germany is that you're one tech in the hole compared to Persia. Since one of Persia's traits is commercial they get Alphabet for free at the start. This makes the GL only two techs away (for Persia) whereas Germany has to research 3 techs. I believe Germany is scientific and militaristic (Bronze Working and Warrior Code) so no Alphabet.

The only thing I can say about the cities is try and get them up to 5 - 6. Make sure that all worked tiles are improved with irrigation/mines and definitely roaded. Generally accepted worker/city ratio is about 2:1 (2 workers per city) to keep just ahead of the city's growth. German workers should be just as efficient as Persian though since neither civ has Industrious as a civ trait.

After re-reading your original post it could be the AI is looking at your Immortal military and caving to your proposals more than it will at your German swordsman military. I'm not sure as I've only played Persia myself and haven't branched to other civs yet. Other pros might have a better idea about how the AI views military of different unit's strength.

 

[Mongrel]

Persia: Industrious and Scientific

 

[wilbill]

One word, gumpie, "trade". As you move above Regent it becomes increasingly difficult to stay even with the AI's in tech research because they trade new techs with each other constantly and at a reduced rate. You're unlikely to have enough beakers to stay even.
Buy techs, trade techs, whatever you have to do to get them. I check the Foreign Advisor screen every couple of turns to see what's "on the market".
It is possible to get the GL, but you have to go down the route to Literature almost from the beginning. It can be done, though, because the AI's generally don't make the GL a priority.

 

[Astares]

Concentrate on getting these techs first via own research or trade: The Wheel (to show you where horses are and to progress onto Horseback Riding), Warrior Code (which I think you get free for being Militaristic), Bronze Working (for Spearmen and progression onto Iron Working), Iron Working (to show you where iron is and for Swordsmen) and finally Horseback Riding (this is optional and can be left till last).

With these techs you can create an army that will take out nearly anyone else with ease, except the Greeks (possibly a few others in PTW version). Research or trade for these techs, scout out and build near Horses and Iron but don't connect up the Iron straight away. After getting the techs, turn your tax slider to pure cash (preferrably if trading for techs don't do gpt or lump sum cash as you'll need every gp for the upgrades). Build as many warriors and/or chariots/horsemen that you can financially support and then connect up the iron and upgrade your warriors to swordsmen and any chariots to Horsemen. Find a neighbour (hopefully your sharing a landmass with at least two other civs) and beat him into a bloody pulp and sue for peace, taking all his techs and any cities he's still got and willing to hand over. While you wait the 20 turns of the peace treaty with him, go and beat up someone else but only if they have techs or alot of gold. Or if a civ has a wonder like the GL, take it, you won't get any culture from it but at least you'll get its benefits and saves having to build it yourself.

The order of battle should be Horsemen to soften up the cities defenders using their retreat ability to hopefully avoid alot of losses, although I find horsemen very effective in their own right against spearmen. Also the upgrade path for Horsemen is their for future benefit. Swordsmen to finish off the defenders and garrison the city till spearmen can be built. Its usually best once the subujated civs can't provide anymore benefit to wipe them out before you meet any other civs, cause I'm pretty sure any rep. hits you may have taken from fighting them won't be known by the other civs once communication is established. Also once a civ is wiped you can safely add any of their workers to your cities and then rebuid the worker out as one of your own, thus undertaking a sort of assimilation and avoiding problems with culture flips.

 

[gumpie]

Originally posted by wilbill
One word, gumpie, "trade". As you move above Regent it becomes increasingly difficult to stay even with the AI's in tech research because they trade new techs with each other constantly and at a reduced rate. You're unlikely to have enough beakers to stay even.
Buy techs, trade techs, whatever you have to do to get them. I check the Foreign Advisor screen every couple of turns to see what's "on the market".
It is possible to get the GL, but you have to go down the route to Literature almost from the beginning. It can be done, though, because the AI's generally don't make the GL a priority.

Well...actually both your suggestions are where i find 2 of my biggest problems. When i head for Lit asap, i still lose out, and when i try to buy stuff from people, 3-400 gold + 3-5 GPT is what they usually ask for. Even the lower techs like Ceremonial Burial and Masonry (though iirc the AI values masonry more than Ceremonial Burial).

 

[blahz]

While I have not played the really high levels, I believe this will work. Since tech cost is related to how many civs you know and how many of those civs own the tech, your best bet would try and find as many civs as possible. I never trade tech unless I'm sure that I can get the most out of the deal, ie, I will trade 2 techs for 1, but then I will use those techs to get as many contacts, maps and/or techs that I can get. Because of this, I usually end up checking to see what each civ has every turn.

As someone pointed out that you should wait a few turns so that more civs know it so the price goes down, sometimes it's good to pay out a little more in hopes that you can gain more from trading that tech to other civs.

Oh yes, and knowing more civs will help out on you getting cheated in the deals, so it won't be as bad.

 

[Beanzy]

In regards to your GL dilema, my suggestion is to get it building ASAP in your capital and CAREFULLY monitor which tiles are being worked but your citizens. Adjust this to ensure maximum shield output. Also, get as many workers as necessary to that city to build mines like crazy. That way, you may be able to build the GL before the other Civs. even if they get a headstart.

 

[Mullet Crusader]

Yeah, im in the exact same boat with ya man, i've been kicking ass on regent and have tried going to Monarch, but i ALWAYS get out-teched and fall behind and have no money and the AI refuses to trade unless i give them a soul, my firstborn child and all my internal organs just as an opening deal, its ridiculous! How can you crush everyone so easily on difficulty 3 and get whacked on difficulty 4? Argh! Stupid sleazy AI, i have to choose between no challenge adn impossible challenge. Ugh, guess ill keep trying..... Bastards......

 

[Bamspeedy]

Contacts, contacts, contacts...

The most important thing is getting contacts with as many civs as possible. Get writing as soon as possible and buy all contacts. The more civs you know, the cheaper the techs will be (if the civs have the tech). Build warriors early in the game to scout and find those civs. If I have writing, I will buy all contacts before purchasing any more techs.

Go for mathematics, polytheism, currency, and other techs the AI seems to avoid, so you can trade them for all other techs.

On monarch and above, it costs you more to research a tech, then it does the AI. More experienced players can outresearch the AI pretty easily on monarch, but maybe you should try doing 0 or 10% research and just buy techs. This is situational, of course, because it depends on the map. If you are alone, or only have 1 neighbor, then you better do more to speed up research than just 10%. But if you have plenty of neighbors, go with the low science. Later on in the game when you have your infrastructure built, you can start out-researching the AI. Getting ahead in the ancient era is the hardest, because of the AI swapping their starting techs with each other.

 

[Gula]

how important is the GL to being built... should i try to build it every game i play??

 

[Mullet Crusader]

The AI always seems to snake the Great Library right out from under me when i have like, 3 turns to go on it....... Then i, in a fit of rage, decalre war and capture the city it in and its all good

 

[JMK]

At Monarch, you should be able to be on line with other Civs early middle age, during anciant age, being two to four techs away from other civs is O.K..
Generally, I won't go myself for the GL, to costly in terms of sheilds but rather go to the expension way, need roaded cities.
As Bamspeedy already write you MUST go for CONTACTS.
Possibly buy tech at third and sell at fith, set your research slider either at 0/10% or Max and go for writting.
Suggest you read a few succession games, you will learn (as I did) a lot.

 

[Moonsinger]

To gumpie,

In addition to what Bamspeedy and others are saying, just remember that the Germans is a militaristic civ; therefore, naturally, you must beat up other civs for tech and gold. If you aren't the warmonger type, try Greece or India.

 

[gumpie]

thanks for all the feedback guys... finally got another huge, pangae game going for the krauts and am finally leading by 1000+ points on the histo. although, my initial game was similar to the previous attempts i decided to just plow on ahead. as usual, i tried to rush for lit (and GL of cos) but i got hammed in almost from the start by a trio of egypt, aztec and russia. fortunately, i was at the top of the map and pretty much had it all to myself, so i decided to start a few settler factories and spread out asap. best thing abt my positioning was that i was able to grab a total of 3 (iirc) luxes and thus did not have much problem with unhappiness initially... to cut the rest of the story really short, i lost out on GL, went for republic asap, kicked russian ass, kicked aztec ass, finally got world map and contacts with the other civs, started to kick egyptian ass, went into GA after rushing ToE (best thing abt having so many Elite units are the subsequent GLs), build up infrastructure for whole duration of GA, incited egyptian to restart war over a silly knight + settler incursion of theirs, now in early 1500s and am cleaning up the egyptians at the moment...been playing for about a week and a half so far...should be done in abt another week... waaay too much mm at the moment -_-;

i guess i would attribute much of my early and mid-game strat to the 'fundamentals' i learnt in Sirp's Monarch teaching game... unfortunately i didnt get to read most of the replies to this thread until i was in already in the lead and was too far gone... but i'll try to factor them into my games in future...

for those who are still stuck in monarch limbo, i think that Sirp's game would give u a better idea of how to tackle the varies problem in the early game...and to those who "insist" on GL, i just realized that it isnt really that important...you can always beat them out of someone like moonsinger aptly mentioned...

 

[Neurospasm]

The problem with the Great Library is that unlike Civ2 (where it was obsolete by electricity), it becomes obsolete when you research education, which is only in the middle ages. In my game (where a lot of fighting brought me 3 great leaders and thus 3 wonders), I built the GL after I researched Monotheism, so that means its obsolete in only a few techs. It's almost not worth it.

 

[gumpie]

yup, this i finally realised... which is why i decided to stop making GL a priority. if using force can get you techs, i'd rather spend the cash on something which requires even more time and effort to acquire, like the pyramids.

 

[elpadrino87]

That's one thing that confuses me: when the GL becomes obsolete, does that mean that anyone who has researched Education will always get a tech that two other known civs have, or does it mean that the GL is OBSOLETE, and Education does not give the GL's ability to anyone whose researched it?