Need help with early start (falling behind on techs)

[Jesusfreak]

I've been trying to make my transition to Monarch, but I'm finding that I consistently get outteched by the AI literally within the first few turns.

I usually play as the Sumerians (can't live without the agricultural trait, and I find that they get placed on floodplains/desert areas more frequently), and immediately build Enkidu Warriors to start scouting. Usually within 15 turns, I've found an AI player and find that he has 3 advances that I don't, and I just have Bronze Working, which he refuses to trade for any of his advances (any advance I try to trade it for gives a "They will probably be insulted by this deal." remark from my advisor).
I also find that there's no possible way to catch up, as they tend to take all of the goody huts in addition to researching faster than me.


How do I fix this?


(By the way, is there a way I can change my name? I was going to make an account today, but apparently I already have an account and can't make more than one for the same email address, and I really hate this name. It sounds like something I would have come up with several months ago back when I was still Christian.)

 

[Aabraxan]

First of all, the name change: PM a mod. If that's not who you need to PM, they can tell you who is.

Most of the problems you describe are fairly typical of the "newbie needs help" threads that we see around here. If you want really good advice, post a save. From all of those threads that I've seen, the problems that you describe often boil down to a few common mistakes, such as:

• Too few workers;
• Too few roads;
• Ineffective trading;
• Too many unnecessary structures;
• Too many unnecessary defensive units.

Also, be sure to research left-to-right, rather than top-to-bottom. That increases your chances of getting monopoly techs, and will improve trade opportunities. Be sure to get scouts and dinghies out to explore and meet civs for trading purposes.

I hope this is of some help.

 

[Jesusfreak]

I've heard all of those possibilities before, and they're all irrelevant.

I'm talking like less than 20 turns into the game, the AI has already outteched me by the time I find them. I've barely built anything but settlers and enkidu warriors by that point. It's almost as if they get free techs on Monarchy (do they?).

EDIT: What are "monopoly techs"?
And yeh, I do send scouts (well, enkidu warriors, only expansionists get scouts) and curraghs out to find people. The problem is, by the time I've found them, they already outtech me.

EDIT2: How do I post saves?

 

[Hellfiredoom]

The AIs start with extra units so they are already out saying "howdy-do" to their neighbors before your first unit is out the front door. Then they trade like crazy amongst themselves. By the time you meet them you can expect to be behind.

Edit answers:
1. Monopoly techs are ones the AI doesn't know yet, so if you can get them first you can trade them to the AIs for other techs, gold, and/or resources.
2. In the "advanced post" screen (doesn't work in "post quick reply") is an option at the top for "attachments". Just link to your save game and viola.

 

[Jesusfreak]

Ok, I think I got the save attached.

I'm doing a bit better this time, but not well enough. I'm about to discover philosophy, but playing onto the next turn, it appears that someone already has it.

I've got most of the worked tiles roaded and I've about run out of room to expo. I've got iron, so I might be able to conquer France (not sure if they have iron), but that would set me way behind economically.

 

[vmxa]

If you are playing with barbs of any setting, then it is likely just a matter of them getting techs from huts. This is especially true, if they are expansionist. They get a bonus on AI to AI trades, a trade they will not make with you, they may make with another AI.

Three techs is not much and would fit right in with the things I mentioned. In evaluation of trades for techs you have to consider the value of the tech in terms of beakers.

If it is 120 beakers and your tech is 60, that is not a frair trade in anyones book. Yours could be worth even less to them, if they are currently researching it and have some beakers in.

 

[CKS]

Usually within 15 turns, I've found an AI player and find that he has 3 advances that I don't, and I just have Bronze Working, which he refuses to trade for any of his advances (any advance I try to trade it for gives a "They will probably be insulted by this deal." remark from my advisor).
I also find that there's no possible way to catch up, as they tend to take all of the goody huts in addition to researching faster than me.

As Hellfiredoom wrote, the AI have probably already met to trade. They won't give you anything for Bronze Working, because that is the first tech they research. By the time you find them, they are only a couple of turns from learning it themselves, so it isn't worth much to them.

To catch up, you do want to research left to right, but also pick research lines that the AI are likely to ignore. Try this article in the war academy for information on how the AI decides what to research; it will help you choose techs that are less likely to be researched by the AI: http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3/strategy/ai_research.php

If you want to catch up earlier, turn off goody huts or try using watery archipelago maps to isolate the AI from each other.

 

[vmxa]

It would seem to me that you could have placed towns much more effectively. Then you would have more towns and gotten more on rivers. That is what AG is all about.

The placement is like the AI and you do not want to emulate them. 5 workers for 10 town is a serious short fall, especially as yo have so much jungle and are so far from the next town.

It is almost never a good plan to have the capitol down to size 1, again that is what the AI does.

I am all for minimalization, but no structures in the capitol is going too far. 18 Enk and no barrack at all is a no no. I always advise players to only make the initial scouting warriors as regulars. All others need to be made with a barracks. You just give up too much.

You are sitting on flood plains, get up a graanry in the capitol earlier and spam out settlers. The second town would have been sweet 111 on the desert FP. You have a hill and 2 BG tiles and could have used it to make a barracks and all your troops as vets.

You only have one boat, I would have prefered to have one going to the right and one to the left. Take a look at the Tutorial in my sig.

 

[Jesusfreak]

I don't understand what you mean about the placement... I put my cities near resources and rivers (if available) and tried to keep a distance in between them, but without any good tiles being unused. The ones in jungle were primarily to hog land (blocks AI and supports units), and a couple had resources available.

Also, how do I build a granary and barracks in my capital without falling way behind on settler production?


By the way, newb question: I've always wondered, if you change a terrain (ie, clear a jungle), will the resources that would have appeared on that terrain (ie, rubber) still appear once you research the tech, or will they only appear of that terrain is still the appropriate terrain (ie, jungle) at the time of discovery?

 

[Hellfiredoom]

First thing most players will notice is the lack of workers and improved tiles. That makes a huge difference. To take full advantage of Agri you have to develop those tiles! 5 workers for 10 cities is backwards, in the early game I usually have 2 workers for each city and grow into the number of cities, ending up with around 1.5-ish workers per city by game end (before rejoining them into cities as needed).

City spacing is a bit too much, though I fully understand about grabbing key tiles before the AI gets there. Still, better spacing with roads means less travel time, whether for military, workers or new settlers. Last place I settle is in jungles, and usually ONLY if there is a luxury there. Let the AI build there, spend worker turns clearing, then you go in and take the developed land from them.

One of the key benefits of Agriculture (in my mind) is it promotes setting up a settler factory. Your question about how to get a granary (and barracks) setup in your captial makes me believe you haven't setup one before. I always get a SF in my capital or second city, it's a must to support proper REX. Here's a quick link to an article in case you haven't set one up before:http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3/strategy/deity_settlers1.php There's a better SF article out there, I'm just too lazy to find it right now Once you get your first SF working, it's like the Holy Grail and you will look to set one up every game.

Finally, to answer your question, the resource will appear in it's assigned tile, whether you've improved it or not.

Good luck and keep the updates coming!

 

[Snarkhunter]

Finally, to answer your question, the resource will appear in it's assigned tile, whether you've improved it or not.

Good luck and keep the updates coming!

A subtlety: if a resource respawns during the game & you have cleared the appropriate tile, it will never respawn on that tile. I find that respawn doesn't happen often enough to worry about; your mileage may vary (YMMV).

kk

 

[Jesusfreak]

A subtlety: if a resource respawns during the game & you have cleared the appropriate tile, it will never respawn on that tile. I find that respawn doesn't happen often enough to worry about; your mileage may vary (YMMV).

kk

What do you mean "respawn"?

By the way, in a few scenarios I've played, I've noticed that some resources (usually iron) can be "exhausted." Does this ever happen in regular games? When does it happen?

EDIT: By the way, the settler tutorial posted earlier mentions not to let your city grow to size 7. Why? Does the granary stop working after size 7 or something? (I usually don't use granaries, so I wouldn't know)

 

[vmxa]

I don't understand what you mean about the placement... I put my cities near resources and rivers (if available) and tried to keep a distance in between them, but without any good tiles being unused. The ones in jungle were primarily to hog land (blocks AI and supports units), and a couple had resources available.

Also, how do I build a granary and barracks in my capital without falling way behind on settler production?


By the way, newb question: I've always wondered, if you change a terrain (ie, clear a jungle), will the resources that would have appeared on that terrain (ie, rubber) still appear once you research the tech, or will they only appear of that terrain is still the appropriate terrain (ie, jungle) at the time of discovery?

Snarkhunter has it correct. If an item was placed at map gen time, it will be there, regardless of clearing the tile. If however you clear a tile that needs jungle, the item cannot be placed in that tile as a respawn.

Placement is too wide and I recommend not placing towns with getting a resource as the primary reason to put it there. IOW normally expand without jumping way out from the empire borders.

That resource will be yours in due time. It is not a god idea to blow up the town placement to get it a bit sooner. Yes there are always exceptions, the rareness of a thing, is what makes it an exception.

Do not wory about keeping up, grow at the pace that works. At Monarch that should be as good as theirs anyway. You are AG on a FP river, so you should have no problem expanding.

I think my post was clear that the capitol, in this case, was not to be the place to make troops. I specified the next town was a prime place to make troops. The capitol has no real tiles for shields and will be poor at building anything other than settlers and workers.

You make a few regular warriors, while the cap grows. Then you try to get a granary built in such a way as to not cripple yourself. That may mean putting up a granary first, or pop out a settler and then do a granary.

I again suggest you read my tutorial to get the feel. As to placement redux, you could have more towns and several could be on rivers in the space you now hold. More towns is better.

You have 6 tiles between the cap and the next town, that is a lot of dead tiles for most of the game and some dead ones for the whole game.

You game looks like the AI ran the empire and at levels above Regent that is a problem as they get a bonus and you do not. So if you play exactly like they do and they have a bonus, how do you do better than they will?

You have to play better than they do, below Regent, you do not has you get the bonus.

 

[Jesusfreak]

Ok, I'm starting a new game.

Here's what I've got so far (attached).

So far, I've built two warriors and had them go scouting. One is about to find a goody hut.
My worker is working on roads near the capital to increase commerce.
My capital is producing a settler, and after that, I plan to make a granary.
EDIT: Actually, I think I should make the granary first, since the settler would be finished before the city grows to size 3.
I'm thinking of making my second city somewhere near the sugar patch northeast of my capital, and the one after that somewhere around the large group of ivories.

Am I doing it right so far?


EDIT: I keep going, found a couple huts. Today's my lucky day, one gave me Warrior Code, the other a settler.

 

[vmxa]

Sounds like a good start. BTW you can only get a settler from a hut, if you do not have a settler at that time or are not building one. IOW, had you been making a settler and popped the hut, you could not get a settler.

 

[Hellfiredoom]

I played the game forward, to setup your settler factory so you can see how to do it. It starts as a 6 turn settler pump, then once you get ivory hooked up it becomes a 5-turner. Not too shabby. The save is attached.

You have to reset citizens twice for it to work (only once after ivory is hooked up). Note which tiles the citizens are working now. After each settler you have to reset the citizens to work these tiles to get the critical +5 food each turn. In two turns Ur grows and you need to remove one citizen from the forest tiles to prevent the town from rioting (as noted, ivory prevents this unhappiness and allows the citizen to keep working). 4 turns later a settler is born, and you need to reset the citizens back to the starting tiles.

I played ahead, and you have some challenges before you... but I won't spoil the surprise!

 

[Jesusfreak]

Challenges... you mean like the Aztecs?

I was playing ahead too, and the Aztecs took the big ivory spot before I could get to it . And I can't war them without setting off the (way too early) golden age with my enkidu warriors.


I'm go back to my fourth save, and go for the ivory first. I've got a city cranking out enkidu warriors and my capital as a settler factory. I'm about to have my workers mine the plains to make production even faster. How does it look?


(I think those are the right two files...)


EDIT: Ok, I tried again from save 4, and I now I'm here, save 6. Managed to get the good spots this time. I've found the Americans and the Mayans. The Mayans are slightly more advanced than I, the Americans slightly less, if I recall. It also appears that the Aztecs are trapped on a peninsula, and they're going for the spear'n'settler combo. I'm working on some enkidu warriors to block their way, although I'm not sure if I'll get them in time.
I've also found that the fresh water lake near my capital is big enough to support a few cities . I've got a city (the one near the horses) placed just right so that cities on the other side of the lake (once I build them) can build ships and send them through that city.
Also note that I still have no iron (Aztecs do). If I can secure iron, I will be able to wage ancient-era warfare without triggering that nasty golden age . Alternatively, once I get a road built to my city with horses, I can use horsemen. It seems that there's no iron anywhere near me besides the one relatively deep in Aztec territory, so I'll have to take them out by the time we hit medieval.

EDIT2: Gah, the Incans attacked me. I've tried reloading the game a few times, but I can't seem to avoid having them attack me, even if they're at "Polite" and have no motivation whatsoever to attack. And they trigger the golden age, which I don't want.
How do I avoid this? (Saved games attached, one I managed to delay the war for a bit)

 

[vmxa]

Save 1, no number:

What did the worker do first thing, second thing? I see a road to nowhere and on a tile that is not worked and will not be worked for some time. So we wasted those worker turns. What are you planning to make in the next 6 builds?

I ask as it will determine, if I work the Oasis or not. If I want a granary first, I would switch to the FP or the river plains. I get the extra commerce and shave a turn off CB.

I would not have selected CB in the first place. I am not going to want a temple for some time and I know others will have CB and either trade it or make it cheaper to research. Now, if you are thinking of the huts, then working a cheap tech may be a good idea.

I tend to not think in those terms. The first thing I want to decide is where my worker is going to go and what is it going to do? The Oasis is too far to deal with now, so what else do I have? Well I am not going to road the forest, that is too many turns.

That suggest the FP and then maybe the plains. I best consider the next town in this plan. May as well see, if I can incorporate roading in that direction. Maybe by the pond past the Ivory is a good site. If so, then road FP, Plains, Ivory, Ivory. Maybe irrigate the plains.

Maybe I would switch to a worker, then I can do a chop on one of the trees or both to speed the granary as the next build. Get those roads up and now I cna irrigate FP and plains, maybe even mine the plains as the FP will give me food.

two workers here means I can soon jump on getting those Oasis connected and watered or mined. Which ever is the most useful to my plans, maybe one water, one mined.

I may need to pop out an Enk to stay home for MP then go on to the granary. I would have to count out the order to see, which is best. I do not want to get the granary down and have happy issues and need to up the slider too much.

 

[Jesusfreak]

Er, I was hoping that that tile would be worked at some point... once I get my settler factory set up, all three floodplains tiles get worked at some point in the production.

I chose CB because it was cheapest, and for some reason, I find that the comps tend not to research it as much as the others. I went for Mysticism, which I attempted to use as a monopoly tech with partial success, if I remember correctly.

I've already gotten way past that save (the unnumbered one was the first) anyhow, now I'm worried about how to avoid war with the Incas =/.

 

[vmxa]

Worked at some point, is not very efficient. Worker turns are very important in the first 100 turns. I dare say that CB will be available in 96/100 games quite early. In the ones that it is not, well you can research it quickly with all the extra towns you would have at that point.

Save2:
Was this a hut settler, was that the one mentioned? I see the worker walked to the Oasis and lost a number of turns getting there. At least you would want to dial down the research to 10%.

Let me check 3 now.