Need people with Cold War history knowledge

[civ editor11]

the warsaw pact is basically the countrys under soviet communist control. So why not add them in with the ussr?
It makes room for the neutral civ and it just seems more realistic.

 

[The_J]

I thought India got its independance in 1961...since the scenario is set in 1960.

Didn't know it exactly, just knew, that it was close after WW2, and wikipedia says, indian independence happended in 1947.

More Oil in Middle East? Arabian peninsula or Persia?

Imho both.

 

[pesgores]

They didn't free all their states that fast. I say, out of 3 cities on the Indian subcontinent, 2 are Indian and 1 is NATO, about to be invaded (the western city), but it would be a bit innacurate.

FAKE EDIT: Just did a Wikipedia search and you're right, by 1947 almost all regions were independant from colonial powers. Except Goa, which confused me. There you go, a neutral nation (kind of...or am I missing something else?), only with tense relations with China (they went to war in 1962...)

OIL: They both have already. Even more?

 

[samthedagger]

I might be able to lend some help here. I majored in History, specifically Russian history so I took a lot of classes dealing with the USSR and speak Russian. I read through the thread and have some questions for pesgores. Are you wanting to simulate the actual Cold War where the Western nations fought proxy wars against the Soviet nations or are you envisioning a WW3-type scenario? Back in Civ2, there was a Cold War scenario that only used 7 nations (which was the limit back then): USA, NATO, USSR (including Warsaw Pact), China, Neutrals, India, and Arabia (which included Egypt, Iraq, Iran, and Pakistan). It took place in 1979 and was basically a WW3 simulation. Nukes were tossed, Europe and Asia were devastated, and global warming made life difficult for all. The scenario was fun to a point, but after global warming hit, it got frustrating. What sort of victory conditions are you planning on having?

Anyway, I can help you on some of the details.

USA: JFK is the president and the USA is embracing a new doctrine of interventionism with the aim of halting the growth of communism wherever it spreads. Towards this end they fund and support any government that claims to support democracy and capitalism, even if the government is in reality despotic. The USA should have the largest military, the most advanced tech, and the best economy in the world. Traits: Protective and Financial.
USSR: Nikita Khrushchev is First Secretary of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union. He is a hardliner who grew up on the collective farms on the Leninist era and has something of an inferiority complex. He definitely feels like he has something to prove. Traits: Aggressive and Industrious.
Warsaw Pact: These countries were little more than puppet governments set up by the USSR and dominated by the greater country completely in terms of their planned economies and militaries. If you really feel you need to include them as a separate civ, Aleksei Antonov (a Russian, that should tell you how much the Soviets trusted their "allies") was the Chief of Staff at the time. If included, they should definitely be treated as a vassal state, probably one that was granted independence. Traits: Organized and Philosophical.
NATO: This entity was much more independent of their chief ally, the USA, than their analogous entity, the Warsaw Pact. The two acted more like equal allies, with each acting quite independent of each other on numerous occasions. A defensive pact between NATO and the USA is probably best representative of their relationship. The Secretary General in 1960 was Paul-Henri Spaak, a Belgian. Traits: Philosophical and Protective.
African Socialist Independant Movement (ASIMO): I would have a hard time coming up with a leader for this. There were just so many.
African Democratic Independant Movement (ADEIMO): See above. Although Joseph Mobutu of Zaire might work fairly well. He was anti-communist, but still a dictator. Traits: Charismatic and Creative.
Egypt: Gamal Nasser was president of Egypt in 1960 and was a well-known politician in his time. He wasn't really pro-Western or pro-Soviet, but he was very nationalistic. He would probably be a few points down with the Western nations for their support of Israel (which really ought to be included here somewhere) and a few points up with the Soviets for trading and peace, but ultimately Cautious towards both. No alliances with either of the big players. Traits: Charismatic and Industrious.
Free Saharan People: Why are they here? I say remove them and replace them with Israel. Let the other African civs and remaining European colonials fill in the gaps.
Nigerian Free States: Nigeria was still struggling for independence in 1960. Nnamdi Azikiwe was Governor General at the time and would later become Nigeria's first president. He was definitely pro-Western. I would say he has a peace treaty and open borders with NATO and the USA and is Annoyed with the USSRs and their allies. Traits: Philosophical and Spiritual.
Central America: I would recommend replacing them with Cuba and merging South and Central America. Obviously this puts Fidel Castro in charge. Although he was not officially the titular head of government until later, he had been pulling the strings since 1959. By this time Cuba is already friendly with the USSR and getting on the USA's nerves. Traits: Charismatic and Industrious
South American Nations: I'm not sure who to recommend here, possibly whoever was in charge of Brazil at the time since that was the most stable nation. South and Central America were otherwise the site of a lot of proxy wars. Probably Cautious towards everyone.
China: This one should be easy. Cautious towards the USSR because of border tensions and "past events." Annoyed with the USA and NATO and their allies.
North Korea: Honestly, the map is so small, you might wish to just ignore them and add Central America back in.
Japan: At this stage, treat them as a capitulated vassal to the USA.
India: Treat them as an independent nation that is friendly towards the West and Cautious towards the Soviet states.
Southeast Asia: With the size of the map and the Vietnam War already in full swing, why not just have Hanoi currently in possession of a pro-communist (Friendly, but not with defensive pacts or anything) Vietnam and Saigon in possession of South Vietnam (you still only have 16 civs by my count)?

Might I suggest one small thing if you want to make this a strategic war scenario? Disable settlers by setting icost to 0.

 

[pesgores]

I might be able to lend some help here. I majored in History, specifically Russian history so I took a lot of classes dealing with the USSR and speak Russian. I read through the thread and have some questions for pesgores. Are you wanting to simulate the actual Cold War where the Western nations fought proxy wars against the Soviet nations or are you envisioning a WW3-type scenario? Back in Civ2, there was a Cold War scenario that only used 7 nations (which was the limit back then): USA, NATO, USSR (including Warsaw Pact), China, Neutrals, India, and Arabia (which included Egypt, Iraq, Iran, and Pakistan). It took place in 1979 and was basically a WW3 simulation. Nukes were tossed, Europe and Asia were devastated, and global warming made life difficult for all. The scenario was fun to a point, but after global warming hit, it got frustrating. What sort of victory conditions are you planning on having?

First of all, thanks for the help

My goal here is to make a mix of both proxy wars and very tense relations between West and East, which in Civ terms won't probably result in war because AIs are afraid of military might of the opponent, even if they are very powerful themsleves (like real life). Nukes are most likely to be used by a human player, not an AI one, so WW3 pretty much depends on the human if they are playing as USA or USSR.

As for game victory conditions, the most likely victory is Space Race, because Time won't be enabled, and superpowers rushing for their spaceships to be built while keeping their military power enough to keep a possible war away.

African Socialist Independant Movement (ASIMO): I would have a hard time coming up with a leader for this. There were just so many.
African Democratic Independant Movement (ADEIMO): See above. Although Joseph Mobutu of Zaire might work fairly well. He was anti-communist, but still a dictator. Traits: Charismatic and Creative.
Egypt: Gamal Nasser was president of Egypt in 1960 and was a well-known politician in his time. He wasn't really pro-Western or pro-Soviet, but he was very nationalistic. He would probably be a few points down with the Western nations for their support of Israel (which really ought to be included here somewhere) and a few points up with the Soviets for trading and peace, but ultimately Cautious towards both. No alliances with either of the big players. Traits: Charismatic and Industrious.
Free Saharan People: Why are they here? I say remove them and replace them with Israel. Let the other African civs and remaining European colonials fill in the gaps.
Nigerian Free States: Nigeria was still struggling for independence in 1960. Nnamdi Azikiwe was Governor General at the time and would later become Nigeria's first president. He was definitely pro-Western. I would say he has a peace treaty and open borders with NATO and the USA and is Annoyed with the USSRs and their allies. Traits: Philosophical and Spiritual.

Since the African situation is very confusing, I'd really need the above explained in the map, please.

Central America: I would recommend replacing them with Cuba and merging South and Central America. Obviously this puts Fidel Castro in charge. Although he was not officially the titular head of government until later, he had been pulling the strings since 1959. By this time Cuba is already friendly with the USSR and getting on the USA's nerves. Traits: Charismatic and Industrious
South American Nations: I'm not sure who to recommend here, possibly whoever was in charge of Brazil at the time since that was the most stable nation. South and Central America were otherwise the site of a lot of proxy wars. Probably Cautious towards everyone.

The reason I separated them was to make sure they aren't big enough to become a superpower together. They'll stay 2 civs.

North Korea: Honestly, the map is so small, you might wish to just ignore them and add Central America back in.

Hmm. You think so? I'd prefer to leave it there, it has decent room.

Southeast Asia: With the size of the map and the Vietnam War already in full swing, why not just have Hanoi currently in possession of a pro-communist (Friendly, but not with defensive pacts or anything) Vietnam and Saigon in possession of South Vietnam (you still only have 16 civs by my count)?

2 civs instead of one?

Might I suggest one small thing if you want to make this a strategic war scenario? Disable settlers by setting icost to 0.

It is intended to be MOD free, but if there is a possibility fo editing this via WBS, it'd be much appreciated.

I thought of this, you know, by placing cities "strategically" so no one would found cities between them, no breaking the 2 plots rule.

 

[samthedagger]

First of all, with all the animosity you are going to have between the USSR and the USA/NATO, it is going to be very difficult to assure a scenario in which the AI does not declare war and use nukes. A lot of people born after the 70s really have very little idea how many times we came really close to nuclear war. Let's just say the entire world was pretty lucky.

Regarding victory conditions, I would recommend you include a time condition. If you begin the scenario in May of 1960 and have it the turns run monthly until January of 1990, that will give you a 500 turn scenario. I've studied Soviet history enough to know that the collapse of the Soviet Union was pretty inevitable, so that seems like a good place to end it. But if the space race is going to be a victory condition, then really the only viable player options should be USA, NATO, USSR, and China. Was this your plan? I think you should at least allow for Domination and Diplomatic victories as well.

As for Africa, you will need to consult an Atlas (and probably an Encyclopedia). But here is what I know from my limited knowledge. Zaire/Congo, Liberia, Gold Coast/Ivory Coast, Angola, Botswana, Morocco, Algeria, Kenya, Namibia and Ethiopia are all pro-Western states so they should be included in the ADEIMO. Sudan, Libya, Somalia, Mozambique, Mali, Central African Empire/Central African Republic, Senegal, and Madagascar are all pro-Soviet states so they should be included in the ASIMO. Nigeria is pro-Western. Egypt is Cautious towards both Soviets and the West. As I said, remove the Free Saharan People and replace them with Israel (represented by Tel Aviv, consult an Atlas for proper placement), who is pro-Western.

The problem with North Korea is I can't see having them without South Korea. However, I believe you still have a spot open, so you could include them both. South Korea should be at a Cease Fire (they are technically still at war today; they never signed an official peace treaty) with North Korea. South Korea has a defensive pact with the USA and Japan but not NATO. North Korea should have a defensive pact with China and open borders with the USSR.

Vietnam was probably the most important proxy war of the Cold War. IMHO you have to include it to make a credible Cold War scenario. I realize that makes two civs, but you do what you gotta.

As for cities, are you actually gonna place cities all the way up in the Yukon and the cold depths of Siberia? Because if you don't, the AI will. There is no way to disable settlers in the WB, but it is a really simple thing to do disable settlers.

 

[pesgores]

First of all, with all the animosity you are going to have between the USSR and the USA/NATO, it is going to be very difficult to assure a scenario in which the AI does not declare war and use nukes. A lot of people born after the 70s really have very little idea how many times we came really close to nuclear war. Let's just say the entire world was pretty lucky.

The AIs are always very reluctant to use nukes. But that's not true if the said AI has 20 nukes ready to destroy the world This can go pretty much like a "what-if" game, WW3 or not, sudden peace between USA and USSR who become allies and conquer the world (lol...)

Regarding victory conditions, I would recommend you include a time condition. If you begin the scenario in May of 1960 and have it the turns run monthly until January of 1990, that will give you a 500 turn scenario. I've studied Soviet history enough to know that the collapse of the Soviet Union was pretty inevitable, so that seems like a good place to end it. But if the space race is going to be a victory condition, then really the only viable player options should be USA, NATO, USSR, and China. Was this your plan? I think you should at least allow for Domination and Diplomatic victories as well.

You suggest Marathon speed with a turn limit of 500 then? The problem is, the game doesn't start to separate turns into months when playing Marathon untill 2000 and late. And this is a no-mod scenario, so...

As for Africa, you will need to consult an Atlas (and probably an Encyclopedia). But here is what I know from my limited knowledge. Zaire/Congo, Liberia, Gold Coast/Ivory Coast, Angola, Botswana, Morocco, Algeria, Kenya, Namibia and Ethiopia are all pro-Western states so they should be included in the ADEIMO. Sudan, Libya, Somalia, Mozambique, Mali, Central African Empire/Central African Republic, Senegal, and Madagascar are all pro-Soviet states so they should be included in the ASIMO. Nigeria is pro-Western. Egypt is Cautious towards both Soviets and the West. As I said, remove the Free Saharan People and replace them with Israel (represented by Tel Aviv, consult an Atlas for proper placement), who is pro-Western.

Useful list. Thank you.

The problem with North Korea is I can't see having them without South Korea. However, I believe you still have a spot open, so you could include them both. South Korea should be at a Cease Fire (they are technically still at war today; they never signed an official peace treaty) with North Korea. South Korea has a defensive pact with the USA and Japan but not NATO. North Korea should have a defensive pact with China and open borders with the USSR.

North and South...The map is just so small...but it has room so let's get to work

Vietnam was probably the most important proxy war of the Cold War. IMHO you have to include it to make a credible Cold War scenario. I realize that makes two civs, but you do what you gotta.

I am sure you that lived through that time period or are American learned the history of the Vietnam war. But I do not meet these conditions, so I know almost nothing about this. Don't worry, a Wiki search will do just fine.

As for cities, are you actually gonna place cities all the way up in the Yukon and the cold depths of Siberia? Because if you don't, the AI will. There is no way to disable settlers in the WB, but it is a really simple thing to do disable settlers.

In the rough draft map, I did it with Siberia. Impossible to place more cities that were already there. I did not try it with North America, of course...and since the map designer made Antartica an actual continent, I have experienced many players before settling on there. What's the damn point? (look signature for explanation)

The best soluton is to edit the land out of it.

UPDATE ON MY SITUATION:
-After I started building the rough draft of the scenario, I realised that, because of some small errors, I had to start it all over again. So, to make sure it doesn't happen this time, I need to be completely sure of, at least, the list of civs to include and possible map changes before I start adding cities.

Thanks to all you guys for helping out, but we're just getting started with this

 

[TheMadMonk]

All my knowledge about this is about 50% of Rise of Nations Cold War scenario and stuff I hear around...

Holy Lord!? I didn't know anyone else that actually played RoN!? I love that game so much but no one else ever plays it.

 

[pesgores]

Holy Lord!? I didn't know anyone else that actually played RoN!? I love that game so much but no one else ever plays it.

Yes, it's a great game, but I hate population max and limited unit selection.

Now back on topic, por favor.

 

[pesgores]

So, civ list:

1-United States of America
2-USSR
3-NATO
4-Warsow Pact
5-Egypt
6-Nigeria
7-Israel
8-ADEIMO
9-ASIMO
10-Central America
11-South American States
12-China
13-India
14-North Korea
15-South Korea
16-Japan
17-Southeast Asia
18-Afghanistan

Afghanistan is new, but since the middle east is empty, seems perfect, and it fills the 18th civ place

 

[samthedagger]

Do this: nix the Warsaw Pact and conglomerate it with the USSR. There really is no need for both. The USSR had complete dominance over those states politically and militarily. Instead of the Warsaw Pact, add Afghanistan. Then you can split Southeast Asia into North Vietnam (and their ally which I believe was Cambodia) and South Vietnam and (and their allies Laos and Thailand). You might want to come up with a different name like Southeast Asian Socialist States and Southeast Asian Democratic States.

 

[pesgores]

So:

1-United States of America
2-USSR
3-NATO
4-Egypt
5-Nigeria
6-Israel
7-ADEIMO
8-ASIMO
9-Central America
10-South American States
11-China
12-India
13-North Korea
14-South Korea
15-Japan
16-Southeast Asian Socialist States
17-Southeast Asian Democratic States
18-Afghanistan

Tanks a lot for the help. I think I can call this civ list the final one.

Phase 2

Easiest phase. Civ for each nation:

1-United States of America USA
2-USSR Russia
3-NATO England
4-Egypt Egypt
5-Nigeria Ethiopia
6-Israel ???
7-ADEIMO ???
8-ASIMO Zululand
9-Central America Aztecs
10-South American States Inca
11-China China
12-India India
13-North Korea ???
14-South Korea Korea
15-Japan Japan
16-Southeast Asian Socialist States ???
17-Southeast Asian Democratic States Khmer
18-Afghanistan Mongols

 

[mechaerik]

You know, there is a difference between Socialism and Communism. Quite a big one.

 

[samthedagger]

In the mind of the McCarthyist scaremongers of the 60s there really wasn't. Remember also there is a big difference between politicians and political scientists. There is also the fact that "socialist" countries usually aligned themselves with the USSR and China during the Cold War while "capitalist" countries usually aligned themselves with the USA and NATO. Meanwhile these labels meant very little. "Socialist" and "capitalist" countries alike were predominantly dictatorships that rarely ended up supporting the ideals they allegedly espoused.

As an aside, I often find it ironic that the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics was not a union, a true soviet, socialist, or a republic. It was a totalitarian police state ruled by a single party. The Bolsheviks formed a top-down government while the United States was originally a bottom-up government.

 

[pesgores]

Should the ADEIMO be Mali?

 

[samthedagger]

Here are some recommendations.

Israel - Carthage
ADEIMO - Mali
Afghanistan - Mongolia (Kublai Khan)
North Korea - Mongolia (Genghis Khan)
China - China (Mao Zedong)
Southeast Asian Socialist States - China (Qin Shi Huang)

I am fairly certain you can have multiple civs with different leaders on the same map as long as you select them for a custom game or through the WB.

 

[mechaerik]

Yeah, you can put the same civ twice, just through editing the WorldBuilder save.

 

[pesgores]

Civ and leader for each nation so far:

1-United States of America USA (Lincoln)
2-USSR Russia (Stalin)
3-NATO England (Churchill)
4-Egypt Egypt (Ramesses)
5-Nigeria Ethiopia (Zara Yakob)
6-Israel Carthage (???)
7-ADEIMO Mali (Mansa Musa)
8-ASIMO Zululand (Shaka)
9-Central America Aztecs (???)
10-South American States Inca (???)
11-China China (Mao Zedong)
12-India India (Gandhi?)
13-North Korea Mongolia (Genghis Khan)
14-South Korea Korea (Wang Kon)
15-Japan Japan (???)
16-Southeast Asian Socialist States China (Qin Shi Huang)
17-Southeast Asian Democratic States Khmer (???)
18-Afghanistan Mongols (Kublai Khan)

Unrestricted leaders ingame also works if I wanna put various leaders of same civs, I think.

 

[pesgores]

Civ and leader for each nation so far:

1-United States of America USA (Lincoln)
2-USSR Russia (Stalin)
3-NATO England (Churchill)
4-Egypt Egypt (Ramesses)
5-Nigeria Ethiopia (Zara Yakob)
6-Israel Carthage (???)
7-ADEIMO Mali (Mansa Musa)
8-ASIMO Zululand (Shaka)
9-Central America Aztecs (???)
10-South American States Inca (???)
11-China China (Mao Zedong)
12-India India (Gandhi?)
13-North Korea Mongolia (Genghis Khan)
14-South Korea Korea (Wang Kon)
15-Japan Japan (???)
16-Southeast Asian Socialist States China (Qin Shi Huang)
17-Southeast Asian Democratic States Khmer (???)
18-Afghanistan Mongols (Kublai Khan)

I need someone to please confirm that I can add the same civ twice ingame.

 

[mechaerik]

Yes you can. But I think something goes wrong with the color.