need some assistance and looking for training games

[ptagi]

Hi all,

I just bought myself the Civ3 CD for a few bucks. I have played Civ very early (I believe Civ 1) and I liked it back then. Now I already played a couple games on chieftain and warlord to get familiar with it all, but I found out that the AI never had enough money.

Now I also discovered that I just played instead of having a specific win in mind. I like to learn more about micromanagement and all that stuff. Most of the times I don't know what to build in my cities so I just go for artillery in non barracks and pikes/swords/cav in barracks, but I end up with more military then I can afford.

Maybe someone has good tips or is willing to start a game to learn.

Regards

 

[Aabraxan]

Welcome to CFC, ptagi!

Take a look in my sig for an An Archive of Training Day games. Also, head to the War Academy for some excellent articles.

If you have more military than you can afford, go put them to use. Take down some enemy cities and plant new cities to increase the number of units that you can afford. You'll find lots of "newbie help threads" around here and here are some of the common mistakes that we see:

• Not enough workers
• Not enough roads
• Ineffective trading
• Ineffective rapid expansion phase
• Too many defensive units
• Too many unnecessary structures

Finally, the best way to get specific help around here is to post a save.

 

[Rurik]

Hi all,

Now I already played a couple games on chieftain and warlord to get familiar with it all, but I found out that the AI never had enough money.

Most of the times I don't know what to build in my cities so I just go for artillery in non barracks and pikes/swords/cav in barracks, but I end up with more military then I can afford.

Maybe someone has good tips or is willing to start a game to learn.

Regards

Welcome to CF, ptagi.
There are a few things I learned which made CivIII most enjoyable to me. Maybe it'll be different for you but here's my advice:

1) read articles in War Academy about REXing (Rapid EXpansion) and City Placement, as well as, Short Single Player Tips thread (though a lot of them are not expressed very well).

2) be aware the advice you get will be relatively useless unless the advice is applicable to your level of play and playing style, as well as, size and age of world, number of civs, etc. (advice should state what level of play and what victory conditions for which it's best).

3) replay the same scenario to fine tune your skills. Save it at 4000BC and play to a certain point (ie. 10AD). Save wherever you stop (ie. 10AD) and reload it from 4000BC. Knowing what you know you can focus on other aspects of gameplay (ie. REXing to 10 cities faster, increasing income more efficiently, etc.).

 

[ptagi]

@Rurik:
I already read those pages about city placement and REX. I use mostly cxxxc in the core and cxxc way outside.

Trading is something I can use some training. How to trade and when to trade. Most of the times I sell my techs when 1 other civ learns it or when they bring no gain to them because it is a dead end (like republic, monarchy and so on)

Let me see if I can play through some start-points and focus on different aspects.

@Aabraxan:
I surely have enough workers. Let me include a savefile I have. I believe it was on Monarch, played the Russions and the save is in 250AD.

 

[Rurik]

Some good game-starting tips:

1) move worker 1 tile to uncover hidden tiles before settling first city

2) settle 1st city on turn 1 (turn 2 if necessary to get next to a river or coast) and settle at least 4 cities by 1650BC...in a ring at about 2-4 tiles from your captal

3) if you're playing with 60% ocean on a continental map, settle first city *away* from river or coast (in expectation of a Palace-jump later) and settle 2nd city on river or coast (deltas are even better)

4) my preferred tech path:
- Ceremonial Burial (2),
- Mysticism (4)[note: by this time you should be able to trade for Warrior Code (3),
- Polytheism (12) [note: by the time you start Polytheism you should have 4-6 cities so it won't take 50 turns to learn],
- Alphabet (5)[note: be reluctant to trade Alphabet unless it's the only way to get Warrior Code (3) or Iron Working (6)],
- Writing (8)[note: don't trade Writing until after you have Philosophy]
- Philosophy (6)[note: be the first civ to learn Philosophy and expensive Monarchy (24) can be had for free, immediately]
- Monarchy (24)[note: *never* trade Monarchy to anyone unless they have The Republic]
- Literature (10)[note: don't trade Literature until you've finished the Great Library; pre-build The Great Library in a non-Capital city so by the time you learn Literature you can switch to it. With it you can catch-up technologically and set tech research to 0% for military upgrades.]

Note: while you're following this tech path the other civs will be learning The Wheel
(4), Horseback Riding (5), Mathematics (8), Construction (20), Map Making (12), and Code of Laws (10). You won't need these techs right away and will get them with The Great Library so don't trade for them.

This tech path allows an Ultra-Early Archer Rush, an Early Archer Rush, and an Early Swordsmen Rush if there's a civ nearby. However, I set research to maximum needed for a an early Philosophy and then switch to 0% while building the Great Library to start upgrading Iron-based units. Remember, on the turn before you learn a tech reduce the slider as much as possible while still being able to learn the tech on the next turn...you'll earn some extra gold.

DoWs (Declaration of Wars):
1) try to trigger Golden Ages of Ancient Era Unique Unit (AEUU) civs before they have Monarchy or The Republic (before they have more than 5 cities is even better)

2) decimating a neighbouring civ may dissuade them from building a wonder for your capture later (it's better to not capture their capital until it has a wonder in it).

3) check your military status vis-a-vis other civs often and try to maintain a "strong" comparison...to discourage their DoW vs you and to make alliances less expensive. Offensive units seem to count more than defensive ones so building a lot of Archers and warriors (for upgrade to Swordsmen) seems to be better than building a lot of Spearmen or Horsemen (which count the same as archers for strength comparison).

4) don't let your Golden Age (GA) be triggered by an AEUU or Wonder until after you're in a Monarchy government.

*EDIT: BTW, when I write "don't" I really mean "try not to if at all possible or unless there's a greater benefit to doing so"...in Civ there are no absolute "don'ts".

 

[ptagi]

That tech path is something I can try. I mostly start with Alphabet if I don't have it as starttech or Pottery. Mostly I don't even bother researching the burial and temple path because I do not build temples until mid Middle Ages.

Let me try and fire up a new game at monarch and see what we can do.

 

[Rurik]

@Rurik:
I already read those pages about city placement and REX. I use mostly cxxxc in the core and cxxc way outside.

Trading is something I can use some training. How to trade and when to trade. Most of the times I sell my techs when 1 other civ learns it or when they bring no gain to them because it is a dead end (like republic, monarchy and so on)

Let me see if I can play through some start-points and focus on different aspects.

@Aabraxan:
I surely have enough workers. Let me include a savefile I have. I believe it was on Monarch, played the Russions and the save is in 250AD.

ptagi, I took a look at the SAV and there are a couple of things I think might work better for you in the future, some of which might be helpful now in this game. Firstly, let me say I play a certain way without the benefit of knowing any civ players offline. So my gameplay is what it is from a lot of solo play.

- City Governors make rookie mistakes so I never use them

- Catapults can be captured so they should always have a couple of defensive units escorting them

- the Forbidden Palace is not very effective unless it's at least 15-20 tiles from the Palace. If you get a Great Leader create an army. If you get a second Great Leader rush-build a new Palace in the middle of what is now one of your neighbouring civs's territory.

- "core" is usually a radius of 10-12 tiles from the Capital on a "standard" map; 20-25 tiles on a "huge" map. The further from the Capital the more spread-out cities should be since they are not very productive and the goal is to claim territory not produce units.

- your city placement is a bit tight thus limiting the growth potential of them, I'd call it CxC and CxxC. City placement should be tightest early on in the game and nearer the core and more spread-out beyond 10-15 tiles.

- there are a couple of cities 1 tile from a river or coast without good reason
- Coastal cities should have a harbour (for trade and vet naval units) and a temple (in order to expand it's radius to include whale resources and interfere with AI trade)
- cities in tundra should be spaced-out and along a coast, if possible, so a harbour can improve their growth

- cities which don't need an aqueduct because they are next to a river or lake shouldn't produce workers/settlers...let them grow to 12
- cities already stuck at 6 or 12 pop should produce workers, settlers, or an aqueduct

- courthouses are not needed in core cities...I find their upkeep rarely worth their value (some of your courthouses add 1 shield to city production...not enough to justify their upkeep)

- granaries are only particularly useful very early in the game; in creating worker/settler pump cities. Sell them once you're done with your REX and the city is maxed-out at 6 or 12 pop and not producing workers/settlers anymore.

- building a wonder in the capital is okay unless another civ finishes that wonder first and there are no other wonders available to switch to. You have options but I wouldn't build all available wonders at the same time...leave yourself a wonder to switch to in case an AI civ finishes it first.

- you have the Great Library and a slight tech lead...there's no reason to be researching Gunpowder while there's Chivalry and it's Knights Templar to build...let Gunpowder come as a freebie.

- Temples and city garrisons would eliminate the need to have the happiness slider at 20%....it's gold going to waste.
- I would cut Iron and quickly build garrison warriors for later upgrade

- the military is mostly catapults which can't do anything on their own

- earlier contact with the other continent may have helped get free techs and give you the ability to trigger their early GAs.

So far you're doing fine. You conquered China and are in Republic gov't. If you eliminate a couple of cities so others can grow, build harbours and temples, and garrison your cities while creating defenders for your catapults you should be fine.

I wish I had a 4000BC.SAV or knew how to import this into a .biq so we could analyze city placement, etc. Anyway, hope this helps.

 

[vmxa]

104gpt for units at a straight Monarch game seems excessive.

Moscow could take a pop of the mined grass that has 2 gold and move to the mined hill. Gaind a shield and 1 gold and drop HG by a turn.

6 galleys at this point is just a waste of unit support. Sell them off as you are on a very large landmass and will be a while till you can cross the sea, let along the ocean.

Cats are nice, but 33 is over kill for this game. I would trim that some.

You are in Republic so sell of the those regular spears and almost never build them in the future.

Make no more pikes, you have enough.

Stop making more cats. Stop making galleys.

No need for courts in a size 1 town. This is C3, but still 1 beaker is beter than nothing.

Fill in the open land asap.

Look at towns like Creepoberia and I would not try to feed 3 pop. Starve them down and leave lone pop as a beakerhead.

Canton no need for a lib, forget about border expansion, just fill in the land with towns.

Only 12 workers for 31 towns and more coming? You should have at least 50.Then you could get those roads up and irrigate those junk towns so they can feed with fewer pop. Farms are not as good in C3 as C3C, but they are still better than nothing.

Get workers in gangs so they can get task done in 1 or 2 turns.

Put those jokers back to work or specialist.

I would not be going towards cavs, if it was me. You do not need them to take these guys down. Getting Astro and Nav to find the others and universities and the better science wonders, more useful in this game. I think I would actually abandon the beakers I have in Gun and get Knights. You have enough cats to win without them, but I would want the speed.

 

[vmxa]

"Rurik"

"- If you get a Great Leader create an army. If you get a second Great Leader rush-build a new Palace in the middle of what is now one of your neighbouring civs's territory."

Remember in C3 leaders canrush great wonders.

"- you have the Great Library and a slight tech lead...there's no reason to be researching Gunpowder while there's Chivalry and it's Knights Templar to build...let Gunpowder come as a freebie."

No KT in C3

"- Temples and city garrisons would eliminate the need to have the happiness slider at 20%....it's gold going to waste.
- I would cut Iron and quickly build garrison warriors for later upgrade"

Is there MP in republic in C3?

Edit:
I checked it out and no MP and no unit support in Republic for vanilla. That is what I thought, but did not trust my memory.

 

[Skullsplitter]

1. Make a habit of checking the wonder status periodically. If you aren't keeping track of roughly how much production each civ has into the wonders, spend the cash to investigate the city its in. Unless you do something drastic, Thebes is going to finish Art of War ahead of you. Its 23 turns away, which Moscow could beat, but you have to forego the Hanging Gardens. By switching, you'll almost certainly lose Sistine which isn't a big deal, but that should set you up to be able to get JS Bach, which is.

2. At this point in the game, (when you need workers and settlers) yellow population numbers almost always mean you're producing the wrong thing. They should have already produced a worker or settler so the food production isn't wasted. Good examples are Yakutsk, Rostov and Sverdlovsk. At this point, the first two should make workers. Sverd is an excellent example of why all govs should be fired. Change from mined grass to mined hill and you get zero excess food but 11 shields. Much much better than 9 shields. Horse then worker, then alternate as needed.

3. I'd send the galleys searching rather than sell them, since you'll only get 7 shields, and about all you'd consider building is harbor/library or barracks. In the future, on continents, there's usually little point in producing galleys unless you intend to send them to find the other civs. If they sink, oh, well, you don't really have a use for them anyway. (I just sent two galleys out, different places, and reached both France and Babylon in 2 turns, i.e., one ocean stop.)

4. Re: switching to Chivalry. Probably a good idea, but close call. It would be nice to know how long ago the last tech was researched. Cleo has a thing for researching Chivalry (probably all those war chariots she should have built) so you may be only a half dozen turns from getting it for free anyway. But if she's not going that route, you'll wish you had. With knights, you'll have Art of War, even if you get it by conquering Thebes a turn or two after Cleo finishes it. She can't stop you. Nine horsemen probably can't do it without heading back home to heal, but a dozen knights can do so handily. And by the time you take Thebes, the odds are better than even that you'll have a leader to rush Leonardos.

Fortunately, you don't have to decide right away. Chivalry is 7 turns away, so you don't have to decide for at least another 5. Before you end turn 5, change to Chivalry, tweak research to economize, then switch back to Gunpowder in case she finishes in her turn and trades it away. Before you end turn 6, see if Cleo has Chivalry. If not, finish up Chiv. If she does, you'll be glad you didn't throw away all those beakers.

5. Split the cats and your swordsmen into two stacks. Add a couple pikemen to each stack so your elite swordsmen don't lose HP on defense. Charge. One square at a time.

 

[darski]

Fortunately, you don't have to decide right away. Chivalry is 7 turns away, so you don't have to decide for at least another 5. Before you end turn 5, change to Chivalry, tweak research to economize, then switch back to Gunpowder in case she finishes in her turn and trades it away. Before you end turn 6, see if Cleo has Chivalry. If not, finish up Chiv. If she does, you'll be glad you didn't throw away all those beakers.

could you just clarify that remark for me?

You know that if you switch, all research is lost on the old tech and you start at 0 on the new. I have probably just misunderstood what you meant.

 

[ptagi]

Thanks for all the info guys.

Rurik, the 4000BC save file can be found on the GOTM site. It is GOTM15 if I can remember it right. But I have included the save file from 4000BC.

So if I recap is correct.
1) Cut down on the galleys and cats.
2) Disband the regular spears
3) Disband the cities that are not coastal but 1 tile away from it. Build temples and harbors in it.
4) Sell the granaries and the courthouses in my Core.
5) disband some cities in the core to improve growth (which cities should that be?)
6) Get more workers (I thought I had plenty because I did not have lot of spaces in the south to let them improve. I thought the border towns should all favored food above shields and let them grown till level 6 and place the excess as scientists.)

There might be more, but this is what I can see as immediate action.

 

[vmxa]

Why would you want to build temples and harbors? You do not need more happiness by making temples and paying for maint. Harbors are only needed in places that are actualy making things and have decent shields and need food.

There is no value in getting to size 6 by building a harbor in town town with no food, no shields and totally corrupt. What do you expect to gain from it? Answer nothing, but the maint of the harbor.

I think the most over built structure is a harbor, they are very rarely useful in a std game.

I do not recall the map that well, but I doubt it is a good move to disband a core town.

How could you think you had enough workers with all the tiles that need improvements.

 

[darski]

There is no value in getting to size 6 by building a harbor in town town with no food, no shields and totally corrupt. What do you expect to gain from it? Answer nothing, but the maint of the harbor.

I think the most over built structure is a harbor, they are very rarely useful in a std game.

I play a very modded game at wussy levels but I like to use those little nothing cities - that keep land from the AI - to slowly build naval units that are at least vet units. I generally am working on cultural victories so all the little nothing burgs add to the total.

I understand your point and I agree with you for your game. but then Sid is an interesting pastime for you and regent is a challenge even with a modded game for me. If you plan to move up the scales then vmxa is the man to listen to.

 

[vmxa]

How does a vet ship help you with culture, given it will be 60-100 turns in coming? How does a harbor help in culture or being size 6 or even 12 making 1 gold/1 beaker? You don't want the AI to found a town in that area, plant another town instead.

The lower the level the less you need to be concerned about them intruding into your area and the easier it is to whack them, if they do.

There is no need for a vet ship at any level. The highest levels, I do not get into ship battles as they will grind me down. At low levels, I will have better ships than them and they will become vets by whacking someones boat.

If you are going for culture the 42nd tundra town is not going to comtribute enough to matter. It will either require you to rush it at some cost or wait 80 turns (depends on civ traits) to get that 1cpt.

Gaining any extra 1 culture towards a culture win is important on tough games, but not below DG. The game in question is at Monarch. You want a cutlure win, get those early towns up with a temple and let them double.

Toss in libs and uni and a few wonders and you can cruise to the 100k. Anyone looks like they are a threat, smack them. No need to strain for max culture, it is not an HoF run.

I can't speak to your mod. What I have said in this thread is aimed at this game on Monarch on a std map. Look you can do many things and win, I am merely pointing out some thigns that could improve the current situation.

It is obvious the player is capable of beating this level in this game, we can see he has the upper hand. I am just given some ideas on what may be worth considering to add to his forumla.

Maknig investments into desert/tundra and other towns that will not produce anything is only going to slow you down and teach you bad ideas. Build them to hold the space and increase your support. Do not put anythign in them.

A town at size 1 with no structures can have it lone citizen as a sci guy and earn as much as the one you built to size 6. The size 6 cost you as you had to out up a harbor and pay for the maint.

If you have some tiels that can make more than 1 food or have a food bonus that is different.

 

[Skullsplitter]

could you just clarify that remark for me?

You know that if you switch, all research is lost on the old tech and you start at 0 on the new. I have probably just misunderstood what you meant.

Huh. I'm probably wrong. I'll have to check, I guess. I was pretty sure I could click on a different tech and the number of turns stayed the same, then change back to the original one. I do that accidentally from time to time, left-click instead of right-click when I wanted to see the civpedia entry, and I was pretty sure I didn't have to reload to keep from losing the beakers, just change it back to what I meant to be researching.

 

[vmxa]

You can switch during your turn with no loss, if you switch back before ending the turn you are fine. If you switch and end turn you lose the beakers.

 

[Skullsplitter]

Ah, that's what's up. I can do whatever I like until I end turn. Thanks.

Under those circumstances, then, Chivalry makes even more sense, because finishing gunpowder is just going to hasten the AI research rate, and make it tough on knights. (I wouldn't have gone the gunpowder route in the first place, though, since it's mostly defensive and at this point in the game, I'd be seriously thinking about getting some use out of those swordsmen before they are totally obsolete. Going up against pikes is still doable with some cat support, but once you face guns, you might as well sell them off.)

ptagi, I'd advise against disbanding any towns. I only do so if I have a good strategic interest in doing so, and I don't see that here anywhere. I may well be the exception, but I prefer a couple towns to build workers which are NOT on fresh water but which have good food. That way I never have to worry about micromanaging to keep them at 6 pop. So a location like Rostov but with irrigation instead of mines so as to get that magical 5 excess food.

I take it you getting set to trigger your golden age? That's the point of the gunpowder, to get cossacks? If it were me, I'd try to hold off until you take Thebes. By that time, Cleo's capitol will likely be Ulundi, so her remote cities will be junk, and Shaka will be itching to jump into the fray. With a weakened Cleo, he may well just declare rather than waiting for an alliance with you, then you can get a peace treaty and an MA against Shaka. If you can golden age with some of Cleo's territory and some of Shaka's, you'll be set.

 

[Bartleby]

No, if you switch and leave the science advisor screen you'll lose the accumulated beakers.

 

[Skullsplitter]

Thx for the clarification, bartleby. So switching to a cheap tech before hitting a goody hut so you don't get the cheap one is a bad idea. Or at the very least doesn't apply to the latest patch. Guess that disclaimer on the Single Player tips thread that not everything said there is a good idea is spot on.

How does a vet ship help you with culture, given it will be 60-100 turns in coming?

I missed the implication the first couple times I read this. Am I misunderstanding culture? I didn't realize units made any difference in culture, regardless of how short a time it takes to produce them.