Need Some Help With Late Game Invasion

[Ovidian]

In my typical play-style, I push for the Domination win and fall back on the Space Race if things go wrong. There are times late in the game where I may have 50-55% of the land and I need one final push to get me over the edge. I have no problems waging the actual war because I push hard for the Tech lead and my overall strategy allows for a large army. What I'm having some trouble with is gaining the actual land during these late wars. I'm hoping that I missed a couple of things and perhaps someone can give me a few finer points.

To better illustrate what I'm saying, here's a quick run-down of my current game: I'm playing India/Ghandi (Continents/Standard/Epic). I wanted to check out those Fast Workers. Anyway, we've been engaged in one war or another for centuries. We've taken out Monty, Russia, and Rome and in turn own our continent. On the other continent is America to the north, Greece in the center, and Egypt to the South. Both America and Egypt are strong and they have a Defensive Pact. Greece is soft, they have no allies, so they are they target. I'm at 54% land mass so if I take them over, the game is done. The year is around 1900 or so.

The war goes as planned. Low casualities, I'm taking cities and they can't stop me. Yet, the actual "turning" of the cities is taking 7 to 9 turns. So by the time I actually get control of the cities, the borders of both America and Egypt have already taken much of the land around them. I won't get the 64% that I need for Domination.

I've done everything that I can think of. I fly in all sorts of Missionaries as soon as I turn the city. (I should mention that I didn't have any religion in Greece before I attacked. Due to the constant wars on my own continent, I never really had the time.) Once I gain control, I rush cultural buildings (especially catherdal-types), if there are any Wonders around I try to build those too.

So, is there any way to speed up the process of "turning" a newly acquired city? Do many of you save Great Artists and use the "culture bomb" at this point? I thought of that strategy, yet, at this late point in the game, my focus is more on Engineers and Scientists. Maybe I should rethink that? Also, how much would it help me to have religion (at least one that I own) in the country that I'm about to take over? I mean is there really such a big difference between doing it beforehand and flying them in once I take the city? (For example, I take the city, it takes 9 turns to gain control, I fly in a Missionary and on the next turn, he "brings" that religion to the city with now 8 turns until I gain control.)

I normally don't have this problem because my late game victim is usually not flanked by two countries. I can just roll in from the outside and slowly crush them towards the opposing country. By that point, I've gotten all the land. Yet, when the country is "in the middle" of them, it makes things quite difficult.

Oh, one last bit. If anyone is thinking that I should just go ahead and attack both America and Egypt (remember they have a defensive pact), um...that ain't happenin'. Yes, India is strong, but we just don't have the juice to pull off that kind of war at this point. Both of those countries aren't far behind me in Tech and they're stacked to the gills in troops. If I go to war, I'll lose what I have of Greece but more importantly, they'll come knocking on my own door and do some serious damage.

 

[atreas]

Oh, one last bit. If anyone is thinking that I should just go ahead and attack both America and Egypt (remember they have a defensive pact), um...that ain't happenin'. Yes, India is strong, but we just don't have the juice to pull off that kind of war at this point. Both of those countries aren't far behind me in Tech and they're stacked to the gills in troops. If I go to war, I'll lose what I have of Greece but more importantly, they'll come knocking on my own door and do some serious damage.

Are you sure? From what you wrote earlier, it seems that Greek land alone was enough for a domination victory. That means, if you just get rid of the "annoying" border cities of the opponents (capture and raze them), then you have domination victory before they even have the chance to undestand it.

In such a scenario you just need a fast, 2-3 turns hit. It all depends on how many are their cities that block your domination victory - you don't even need to consider what would have happened if the war continues for many turns.

 

[cairo140]

You stated that Greek land was all that was left for domination.

Therefore, a Gung Ho push for the border cities should be feasible. This means massive conscription or rushing in the Greek cities. Do a battle of the bulge, and as atreas stated, razing the border cities should be enough to push you over the top. This is were ICBMs would be useful.

 

[ToV]

This is were ICBMs would be useful.

Two ICBMs can elliminate just about anything they have in their cities. I would recomend, it you Have Nukes, to use them. If razing the border cities alone do not work, and the war might take longer than expected, then just send a nuke or two at where you think the large stacks are. (This is where spies come in handy)

 

[Ovidian]

Yes, I strongly considered breaking down the borders of either America and/or Egypt. What had me pause a bit was the location of each of their capitols. Right near both borders. So the bulk of each army was right there. If the cities on the borders were just normal cities, I would have rushed them.

I do however appreciate the advice for using nukes. Although having a warmonger style, I really haven't used nukes. Hmmm...odd that they are a valid part of the game, yet on some personal level I don't even consider using nukes as an option. I guess as a human being, that's a good thing. But as a player, I'm not taking advantage of the full range of the choices that the game allows. Again...odd how that's worked out for me.

I thank one and all for the advice. Lastly though, anything to speed up the turning of a newly acquired city? I don't think that there is, but then again, every time I play a new game, I learn a few new things so it pays to ask here.

 

[ToV]

I thank one and all for the advice. Lastly though, anything to speed up the turning of a newly acquired city? I don't think that there is, but then again, every time I play a new game, I learn a few new things so it pays to ask here.

Besides a Great artist, I know nothing. Maybe sharing the same religion will help, but I am not sure about that.

Yes, I strongly considered breaking down the borders of either America and/or Egypt. What had me pause a bit was the location of each of their capitols. Right near both borders. So the bulk of each army was right there. If the cities on the borders were just normal cities, I would have rushed them.

BOTH capitals are on your border's! You know what that means? You know exacylt where to send your nukes! Nuke the cities until there are no troops left. Usually two will get the job done. You might want to send a spy in first to steal their plans, so you can nuke all the other large stacks as well. (You did build nukes, right? You can rush them, if you did not. Just be sure to let one turn of pre building go by, as that drasticly reduces the rush cost)

 

[Ovidian]

BOTH capitals are on your border's!

Yes. Greece was in a very odd position, long and not wide. I knew I was going to have trouble gaining the land from the outset. The whole lay of the land in that particular game was giving me problems, which was fun in a way since my last few games went very smoothly. Anyway, I did start the Manhattan Project, but it would have taken too many turns since you can't "rush" it. I copped out and went with the Space Race victory. I was half way done before going into Greece since I was so unsure if I could gain enough land. I really didn't have to start that war, I just did so to see what would happen. I also had more time than I thought because my spies were really working over America. They never did get their NASA program off the ground.

In the future, I'll start the Manhatten Project sooner so I can play around with that aspect of the game.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

A few other things that can help the culture in a new city (not much for high level culture pushing, but some bonuses)

1. Eiffel Tower, really usefull for late game domination pushes, you start out with Broadcast Towers in each new city, and therefor Artists as soon as the Revolt is over.. an immediate 8 culture per turn easily... enough to grab the easy terrain quickly.

As for pushing things back... in the industrial/modern the only way to do it is war, that other culture has just been there for too long, Great Artists aren't really worth it, except for maybe a key city or two.

 

[Ovidian]

1. Eiffel Tower, really usefull for late game domination pushes, you start out with Broadcast Towers in each new city, and therefor Artists as soon as the Revolt is over.. an immediate 8 culture per turn easily... enough to grab the easy terrain quickly.

Oh, I'm a big fan of the Eiffel Tower. It's not in my "must have" group, but it comes awfully close. In my Tech progression on Epic, it comes at a great time. At the point that I get it, I've usually just completed a war and have shut down a bit to focus on infrastructure.

Hmmm, upon thinking about it, I guess it is a "must have" for me since I'm always building it as soon as it comes up in every game. Of course not as important as something like the Pentagon for me, but anything that helps control the borders is a very good thing.

 

[Crighton]

my $.02.

Drive both north and south from greece to america and egypt, raze their cities along the border to undercut their cultural borders and influence. it's possible the war and their retaliation may be cut short by your domination victory (and if your afraid of their retaliatory stacks and have nukes use them on the stacks or the cities where they're located).

 

[gdgrimm]

Religion (even spreading it there early) wouldn't have helped you.

GA Culture Bombs won't help in your situation either. In fact, you'll be better off using GA's as specialist, as time is the only way you can push back the culture from America and Egypt.

Others have been suggesting some military solution to your immediate (i.e. 1900 AD) situation.

Let me offer a 'Diplomatic' idea that may be of value in future games....

In this game, back in 1800 AD (or maybe 1850 AD, depending on game speed), you probably could/should have guessed that this 1900 AD situation would develop. You need a little of the other continent to win Domination, Greece is the easy target but is being culturally squeezed by Egypt and America, and the formation of an Eqyptian/American power block (they may not have had a Defense Pact then, but they were probably very friendly, and you could have guessed that a Defense Pact might form) making invasion of the continent difficult.

OK. So in 1800 (or 1850) you should have began your Domination plan for the other continent. I can see a couple viable paths.....

1) Become good friends with Alexander. Start feeding him all the military techs you can. Maybe even gift him a stack of death. When 1900 hits, bribe him to start a war with Egypt or America (whichever is weaker, let's assume it's Egypt for this example). Egypt's return declaration of war will break the Egypt/America defense pact. You now declare war on Egypt and coordinate your attacks with Alexander's. Let the Greeks attack the side of the Egyptian empire near the continent center, while you invade from the edges of the continent. That war may be more difficult than the war you're now fighting with Greece, but it'll be a war against 1 Civ (who will be fighting a 2 front war), and you'll be taking cities at the edge of a continent, so you won't have to worry about pressing culture borders to grab your land requirement. Greece will probably end up being wiped out due to it's 2 front war, but who cares. You'll get your land and your Domination Victory.

2) Become good friends with Egypt and America. When 1900 arrives, bribe the weaker one to go to war with Alexander. That breaks the defense pact between Egypt/America. Now backstab whomever you paid to start the war, and go to war against them. You now have the same military setup as in #1. It's a horrible way to treat a friend, but who cares. You'll get your land and your Domination Victory.

In either case, the important things are...
1) Recognize that the situation is going to develop. (i.e. you'll need to grab some land on the other continent). And do something to tilt the situation in your favor.
2) Stay focused on the goal -- grabbing that land for domination victory. Winning a war, defeating another civ, are being a good friend, isn't important. You just want to get the land.
3) Land is easiest to get by invading a continent at the edges, not striking at it's middle.
4) Getting a war started through diplomacy is a great way to liquidate defense pacts so you can start a war against a single nation.
5) Forcing a 2 front war on an enemy is a wonderful thing when you're only looking to grab a few cities (it can be a bad idea though, if you want to conquer the entire civ).

See, who needs Nukes. Machiavelli and Sun Tzu didn't.

 

[lawren65]

One way to land grab to in late war is to stock up on settlers, raise cities as you invade, plop down your own cities in their place, and buy rush buildings that produce culture all in the same turn (rush buy a couple of buildings in a row).

In your case egypt and america's culture borders will still encroach, but you should be able to get enough culture going to hold your ground

 

[voek]

You should always build a few nukes for backup. When the other is becoming too strong (for war or winning the Space Race) and you are close to your victory, it's THE weapon to end the game. The AI won't build or use them.

Oh, one option i haven;t seen mentioned is Diplo Vic. Kiss Alex his ass and get him to vore for you. Get America and Egypt to dislike him and the other way around.

If his land is enough for Domination it sure will be enough for Diplo Vic.

And no, there isn't a way to hurry city turnover (except GA). The only factors i think help decreasing the turns (prior) is having your culture pushing at the city, having the city's religion and i think (not sure) it's size. So kill it almost and then take over.

 

[butlerj1982]

Could be a tough solution if you get a huge penalty for emancipation, but what about running Caste System for artists? I use that earlier in the game alot to push back conquered borders. In the long run it will hurt your happiness, but in the short run you could get enough to win the dom.

 

[ToV]

See, who needs Nukes. Machiavelli and Sun Tzu didn't.

This is what seperates the masters from the mental ward escapees.

The AI won't build or use them.

They will use them, just not build them. You have to give them nukes in the world builder.

 

[voek]

Well when i gave them some nukes they still didn't use them (after i DID use them). Anyway, the AI not building nukes (they do build the Manhatten Project however) is a serious flaw i think.

You can beat a much stronger AI late in the game, when all hope seems lost. So i usually only resort to the most 'peace keeping weapons of all time' when i want to speed up the end. I like to play large/huge maps...

 

[ToV]

Well when i gave them some nukes they still didn't use them (after i DID use them). Anyway, the AI not building nukes (they do build the Manhatten Project however) is a serious flaw i think.

That is not my experienced. The Mongolians Nuked some poor Barbarian City to ashes. (Serves them right. They also Nuked ME!) I think they will nuke in retaliation.

 

[Immaculate]

If you need to push hard with culture, i agree with whoever said to run caste system. You are spiritual (Ghandi) so why not? Get artists in all the captured cities and run as many artists as you can each turn (don't worry about starvation of greek cities). The culture should add up pretty quick from all the artists (especially if you have the S. chapel) and if you want to build culture boosting cities, you can always buy them.

 

[JoeBlade]

I've been in this predicament more than once myself, and I can confirm what others have said: pushing back those borders won't work. I'm not sure as to the precise mechanics of culture but it does seem that it becomes harder to push back another culture the longer it's been present. You'll probably end up winning space race before finishing domination when pushing against well-established culture borders.

I'd go with a combination of aforementioned tactics:
1. Switch to Theocracy+Vassalage now that you've got a religion.
2a. If your cities are mainly commerce-oriented, drop your science rate to 0% and switch to Univ. Suffrage to buy troops instead of building them.
2b. If your cities are mainly production-oriented (or you have a couple of production powerhouses at least) switch to Police state.
3. Load up on ICBM's, tanks/MA's and (stealth) bombers. If many of the other civs' cities are coastal, you may want destroyer/battleship combos as well as they're marvelous for taking out city defenses + cheaper than ICBM's. Get as many units as you can over there as quickly as you can (build airports and transports first if need be)
4. Finally, try to either pummel a single civ together with a temporary ally, or backstab your alledged ally.
Utterly vaporise your target: don't stop until you've won the game or there's nothing left of your target, otherwise those annoying cultural border (and the revolts that come with it) will be back soon enough.