Need some ideas on (NEW) UN

[dh_epic]

Burt Reynolds, you have to go back to what Padmewan said to understand the fundamental problem.

Fundamentally, the problem (from this perspective) with the Civ series is its bias towards war/conquest. In the real world, at least in modern times, there is really no incentive for the US to, for example, conquer Africa. (Let's not talk about Iraq!) How is this modeled in Civ? Not at all... it is always good to conquer more land, with "maintenance" being an inhibitor but an arbitrary and surmountable one.

Bigger is always better, backstabbing is always smart, and conquest enables all victories. No amount of tinkering with the UN can change that. If the game pits you against your friends in a winner-take-all environment, you cannot have legitimate diplomacy.

Which is the #1 complaint I have with realism-mongers. Yes, realism is part of Civilization 4's charm. But part of the charm is also that it's a game, and games have winners and losers. And in a game with a winner, you'll see America back stab England before the 2050 AD deadline, and everyone in the entire world shifting their production towards Alpha Centaurii, with zero concern for what impact Nuclear war has on the long term sustainability of the planet. Games are by definition unrealistic. Yet the same people clamoring for more realism are the same people who LOVE conquering the entire world -- the most unrealistic dream imaginable.

If you want good diplomacy, you have to go really deep... you have to tackle the entire point of Civilization 4. How do you win?

 

[Padmewan]

If you want good diplomacy, you have to go really deep... you have to tackle the entire point of Civilization 4. How do you win?

I was reading A Theory of Fun for Game Design this weekend and thinking a lot about this question. The author (Raph Koster, who now runs Sony's online worlds) asserts that most games model "reptile instincts" at their core -- run, jump, shoot. I think you can argue that Civ is a step above that -- it's fundamentally a resource management / opportunity cost game.

The core issue brought up in this thread is the one that Raph worries about most: today's survival skills are not about running and jumping but tolerance and cooperation. Yet, what games model those skills? Arguably, MMORPGs and The Sims.

To make the UN "work," you would have to have a good theory of social interaction on which to model the UN and, actually, all diplomacy -- including altruism, game theory, etc... Then you would need to create mechanisms to move the levers of that model and a objective worth working towards.

Having never achieved a diplomatic victory in vanilla, I can't say that much to praise or criticize it. I do know that the developers, at least, feel that the AI relationships are now a lot more rational and reasonable than in Civ3, and that you can no longer "buy love" in the game. I'm curious about others' experiences with this -- if anyone has ever played an "all-diplomacy" game the way people play "culture" games.

***

Anyway, in refactoring our mod I'm investigating how to expand diplomatic options. I think we actually want to start with a functioning "UN" and then have it break down over time, rather than v.v. Particularly important for us would be the option to kick members out of the UN, with nasty consequences for the pariah.

 

[almeida_cohen]

I was just wondering if anyone has started to make this mod? and when will it be ready?

thanx

almeida_cohen

 

[jlocke]

if anyone did, it would certainly be amazing.
I've been trying to add more interesting voting options to the UN in my Cold War scenario, but without much success.

 

[[CRO]Nemesis]

Well, I have this idea that there should be UN before discovering mass media.

For example:
With finding alphabet you can build some wonder that allowes you to do same stuff as UN until someone other builds some other wonder in renesance, then, in industrial time you can build "ligue of nations" which is obsolated with UN

 

[Komori]

This are my thoughts on this matter:

The U.N. was a natural evolution, and it was not conceived precisely as it was. The idea of a ligue of nations evolving to a U.N. is far more "realistic" and according to history. But this would assume there was only one league of nations trying to accomplish that, which, of course, it's not the case in real history.

This is how I think the mechanics should be:

Every nation can build a national wonder, perhaps league of nations. Once that is built you may invite your neighbours into it. Once one neighbour is inside your league, it cannot build one himself. This would lead probably into 2 groups formed, maybe more. Each group has it's own civics and commerce ideas. This could be resolved in two manners: total war between both groups (join the other league for peace) - not too different of world war two - or thru negociations calling other nations inside your league, by technology trade, goods trade or simply gold.

Once ALL nations alive are into one of the leagues, comes the second part of diplomatic victory: Being elected "World President" or whatever they call the diplomatic victory.

Perhaps one could even make so that all nations under his league are commanded by the Secretary, which would make war against other leagues far harder. Leagues could become like "united kingdoms" or semi-independent states under the lead of the league. This would bring every military unit on control of the secretary, or maybe every attack unit, thus each civ can take care of defense themselves.

This is diplomatic victory with some military victory to it, which i find a lot more realistic.

Now, i'm trying to learn python and stuff, i've no idea if all this is possible. It's just a model I think it is inside the game possibilities and that i believe that would make game play better

 

[German Lonewolf]

Moin, (northern german greeting)

so for the Peace Keeping Missions I do have an idea.

So the UN can Vote to end a war, if the do so, the yes vote have to give military units of their own, to the UN, normal units, which change color to the UN Color, flag like the org. one.

The the UN, only the yes voter again, vote who will be the commanding nation of this mission,oncethis ist done, the elected nation has two turn, first the nation, and than he has to command the UN troops.

If the conquer a city, the city will be given to the last nation. UN troops can also attack, but only inside the boundaries of the civ which defended, always the weaker civ, outside the boundaries the UN can Only defend, exept inside the boundaries of UN-Member civ, as long as this civ is not the agressor.

After the civs at war declared peace, the UN Troops will splitt up change color, an return to the nearest home city.


So this is my Idea about UN Troops...

I have no knowlegde about Phyton or any other language, so I am not able to program it by myself.
But I imagine that this could be really hard and complicated to program..

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Sorry for my long absence, but I got hit by a car-so have been incommunicado.
Anyway, I don't think that realism in diplomacy and having a game victory need to be mutually exclusive-especially as regards the UN.
For instance, being close friends and trading partners with fellow nations should lead to cultural exchange which-in turn-will make getting your way in the UN so much easier. Voting to send peacekeepers to 2 rival nations could be altruistic-or could just be a ploy to garner favour with one or both of those countries (or simply because the war is disruptive to your ultimate goals).
Things like vassal states, minor nations, a greater focus on civics/ideology and incorporation of a broader culture/economy system will/can make the relationship between realism and game-based victory even stronger!

Aussie_Lurker

 

[dh_epic]

Aussie, sorry to hear about your accident. I hope you're alright.

But I definitely agree that you can have both realistic diplomacy AND have diplomatic victory -- and minor civilizations is the key to this. The minor civilizations are the pawns that bend to your will, care about personality, hold grudges, and build friendships. The regular civilizations are the hardcore 'play hard to win' types.

 

[Nilsmaln]

This discussion is all well and good, but nothing concrete is on the table right now. No prototype, no blueprint, no modification.

 

[Peldie]

Reviving this old thread, I hope somone still reads it.

As I see this, the UN (and every other larger international organization for that matter) is way too complicated to reproduce in a game like CIV, where there is enough things to worry about already. What I am trying to say here, is that expanding the UN too much will get players to trouble and kill some of the gaming experience. UN is good and the idea of UN Peace Keeping Forces is nice, but there are lots of important organizations in the UN that cannot be fitted in the game. WHO, UNHCR, UNESCO, UNEP, UNDP, IMF...you get the point.

Politics aside, one thing I would like to see in the future UN mods is expanded effect of the UN "community" to the diplomatic negotiations. I recall seeing "I want you to vote this..." option in Alpha Centauri's diplomatic screen.

One idea: what about NATO and/or other military organizations, that would work a bit like the Defensive Pact and alliances, but with a twist. Effect of gameplay would be something of this kind: when a member of military organization is being attacked either he can draft units (without morale penalty) that are far more experienced than the usual units or there would spawn some NATO units. Also "rentable" units like the NATO AWACS-aeroplane would be available. To belong or not in one of these organizations would bring up some flavour to the diplomatic negotiations and could lead to some kind of exciting situations we know as Cold War.

 

[boneys26]

I would like to see UN units and have the chance to vote for them to do peace keeping missions or not (like the real UN) eg:the UN could ask the attacking civ to declare peace and if they don't after 2 turns then the UN moves in to help the defending civ and set it so this can only be used in war times to stop the AI and person using it to there advantage in short the UN can not attack if that civ is in peace

 

[ChickenSalad]

Can someone tell me how/where to edit the resolutions and their functions?
I've searched around but seems only the names are editable in the xml, is the rest only changeable through the SDK?

XML wouldn't be too much of a problem for me, Python I've never tried (but I can do some Java so I guess it should be doable).

Some ideas:

UN join/leave option: Leaving creates a temporary -3(?) (wears off after 15(?) rounds) in the relations with all leaders that are part of the UN. After that, and for those that decide not to join the UN, it creates a -1 every 10(?) rounds.
To make not being part a somewhat interesting option, there could be a +1 in the relations with all leaders that are NOT part of the UN.

Civic resolutions: No longer as a single civic option instead a penalty (don't know how high) for all other civics as well as a constant -1 in the relations with all leaders that are part of the UN for each civic chosen different to what the resolutions want you to.
If you're not a UN member, the penalties should be much lower (e.g. 50% of the penalties for UN members).

Nuke ban: No longer removing the nukes but generating a -1 in the relations with all leaders that are part of the UN for every nuke built after the ban, as well as a certain generated by each nuke stationed in a city.
If you're not a UN member, the penalties should be much lower (e.g. 50% of the penalties for UN members)

 

[Splinter13]

I don't know if this has already been covered because I havn't read all the posts in this thread but here are my ideas :

- Having peacekeeping oppertunities : How about having futuristic 'Barbarians' (Could be renamed as Terrorist) and have them distrupt civilizations.These Terrorists could be well packed into cities of their own and be quite fortified.

- If a country was an member of the United Nations they could take part in the peacekeeping effort and try and destroy the Terrorist outposts. Doing this could cause improved relations and support for later peacekeeping missions.

- If a country in the UN didn't take part in the peacekeeping effort somehow they could loose some relations..etc

----Please expand on these ideas if you want. G'luck with the project Have fun

 

[Terran Empress]

United Nations Global Defense Initiative
A United Nations army that any country (in the UN) could join once it is founded by the civ that made the UN, it basically acts like a huge civilization that goes to war together, shares tech, and above all has special units (Mammoth tank, Mammoth Mk II (national unit only 3 build for each nation), Commando (same as Mammoth Mk II) Zone Raiders, Orca Gunship, MCV (which can build a pack able base and build new GDI units when it is deployed)) As well as access to GDI's supper weapon The Ion Cannon (After it is built and the Ion Cannon Control is built in a city) The Ion Cannon Control building is a national wonder that can only be built by a GDI nation that gives them the ability to use the ion cannon once every three turns or so, The GDI is different from regular UN Troops as you can be a part of the UN but not part of GDI, and you can drop out of GDI but stay in the UN, (GDI Units uses lots of upkeep so some nations would not want to be a part of it) and the GDI can help out UN but mostly act independently from it and its main goal is counter Terrorism, as well as any city captured by the a GDI Nation would go to the nation that captured it, It could sort of act like a secondary religion (not counteracting a current religion) if you could find other factions to be founded *Cough* Brotherhood of Nod *Cough*
any way i have ranted on long enough hope you like the idea.

I thought of another thing every civilization should have a "Rebel" Counterpart (US has The Confederacy, The Romans have the Papal states, England has Ireland, Russia has the Bolsheviks, Etc.) and each "rebel" has its own leader, its own cites and possibly its own special units.

*This has multiple effects on the game world and the UN

*one of which is a new feature that allows civs to recognize other civs, if a civ does not have a certain amount of recognition it cant join the UN and it cant have diplomacy with the countries that don't recognize it (this could also allow for micro-nations)

* eventually if a civ pisses off its citizens in a certain area of its country it will bound together and declare Independence, this civ is known as a "Rebel Civ"

* if the rebel civ is formed before the UN then other civs have to chose which country to acknowledge as the true country, the original or the rebel, which just shows who trades with who and who likes who better

* If the rebel civ is formed after the UN then the same thing happens above, but the UN can decide who to acknowledge and help that country by sending troops (either GDI or other UN troops

*If a rebellion is quelled then if a country changed its acknowledgement to the rebel then they would have to manually change it back to the original if they wanted to

*if the rebel civ wins the war and destroys its original you must change acknowledgement manually to them if did not acknowledge them before

*If the war ends in a draw and the original decides to give up on trying to take back the rebel and lets it go on and run on its own then the rebel civ becomes its own civ and other civs can acknowledge both civs the original and the rebel

*changing acknowledgement always pisses off the other nation no matter what, also you can still talk with civs you don't acknowledge but you cant conduct diplomacy and you dont see their boarders

* If you dont acknowldge that a nation exists then you cant see their boarders, and then you can go in and colonize (before the UN is built of course because that is technically a deceleration of war and a UN country can always defend its ally) but you can move your units through their "territory" and can settle in their "territory" allowing things more like what happened in during the age of colonization just taking land that wasn't theirs. (also with this you could have a civic or two that makes sure that your citizens don't get pissed off of taking an unrecognized civs territory by colonization.

 

[DOmar1990]

Download Total War 1.1... there you will see a completely new UN