Need to compare my viewpoint with yours

[Crusher1]

Please don't truncate my quotes in a way that reverses the meaning

I'm not. I have correctly stated from the beginning as shown from my example, and many other WB examples that I have proving that fully upgraded WS outproduce fully upgraded towns. I was using your quote to further hammer away my 100% accurate point.

Are you seriously just ignoring the reality here? 100% gold towns with the proper civics are going to beat 100% hammer workshops with the proper civics. Waiting 1 turn to avoid the rush buy penalty does not put you behind, it puts you ahead.

This is 100% inaccurate and flawed. I can't believe you're even trying to support such nonsense. Every WB example I have has WS owning towns - not just ahead, but handily ahead. When you can recreate a WB scenario with the same amount of cities and workable tiles and produce more units then you are correct. However, I have already extensively tested this and it won't happen.

Once again, it is not a matter of opinion or any other mathematical mumbo jumbo you wish to incarnate - the only thing that matters is in a real game working real tiles producing real results.

TMIT, you are 100% wrong, but it wouldn't be the 1st time, nor the last if you persist in such nonsensical ideas.

EDIT: Just couldn't get you to bite huh! I really do love you =D.

Crusher 2-0
Iranon 0-2
TMIT 0-1 with further separation pending.

Bring facts or go home. This isn't a popularity contest. It's about providing good and accurate information with "proof" vs flawed theories.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Well, I'll have a look in the WB myself then, but for the time being, I just feel the need to point out that if you've handed out 3 L's, you should probably have more than 2 W's, if you're going that direction with the thread .

 

[Crusher1]

Nope, I lose everytime I open my mouth but that's because I choose to, not because I have no choice ^^. After all, I have to get my amusement from somewhere. With my internship I don't have much time for a real life at the moment.

But on a serious note, when you find a way to make Towns outproduce WS let me know so I can stop demolishing my late game towns with WS - it would save me a lot of MM. My signature is there for bait - and you're not biting! Tisk, Tisk - Someone else has an IQ over 138 too ? You and some other random person! ^^ but then again, who really knows =P

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Nope, I lose everytime I open my mouth but that's because I choose to, not because I have no choice ^^. After all, I have to get my amusement from somewhere. With my internship I don't have much time for a real life at the moment.

But on a serious note, when you find a way to make Towns outproduce WS let me know so I can stop demolishing my late game towns with WS - it would save me a lot of MM. My signature is there for bait - and you're not biting! Tisk, Tisk - Someone else has an IQ over 138 too ? You and some other random person! ^^ but then again, who really knows =P

Give me a minute, my worldbuilder tests are showing something that is kind of X_X that voids this discussion unless I'm doing something wrong...

Edit: OK, here we go. In preparing to do this comparative analysis, I first set up the towns...

Nothing too special, just a size 10 city with the necessary modifiers for a gold rush strategy, no kremlin this time. I revolted into the requisite civics (including SP because of where I put this city, and the no trade routes thing...anyway I went US/FS/Emancipation/SP/FR for a 3 turn revolt).

I then queued up a navy SEAL in auto loop, like so:

This comes nowhere near SP caste workshops, but the numbers tell us this.

Ok, so now we add the kremlin, which in theory reduces the costs enough to make towns win this little competition, all things being equal.

So we get to the same turn and...

.

Comparing SP workshops to kremlin towns isn't possible, if the kremlin does not function...

I have all the techs in the game. I checked obsolescence - the kremlin doesn't. I'm in US, and I'm trying to rush buy a unit...and it's costing me identical gold with the kremlin.

So um...yeah. The numbers we are using on the forum accurately depict a situation where the kremlin towns win, however we're using funny money here ----> where are the cost savings? Of COURSE the towns are going to lose like this!

In other words, kremlin towns appear bugged, so there's no point discussing if they're more efficient or not. They don't work. We might as well be talking about 5 watermills w/o a golden age.

It appears the combination of your worldbuilder testing any my own shows us something quite interesting indeed .

It turns out a theory is flawed alright. As in, the theory that this game is working properly. It's not been the first time that's come up flawed though X_X.

Edit:

My signature is there for bait - and you're not biting! Tisk, Tisk - Someone else has an IQ over 138 too ? You and some other random person! ^^ but then again, who really knows =P

I haven't had it tested in a long time but I was somewhere in the mid 130's...so probably not over 138. But, I hate losing in the game a lot more than on the forum. If I lose on the forum, I learn and get better. If I lose in the game, well I learn too usually but it sucks a lot worse.

 

[nikosison]

But the Kremlin does obsolete. Try it again without fiber optics

 

[TheMeInTeam]

But the Kremlin does obsolete. Try it again without fiber optics

Will do. I somehow didn't notice it. Let's see if I can get this working then.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Alright, the results, now with less crappy usage of $$$ buy, my brain farting out of the way (hopefully), and a neutral civ:

The Kremlin lost here...BARELY. Hardly the blowout crusher was implying. However:

- I had to $$$ buy once without putting hammers in, losing some gold (with more cities this does not happen in practice)
- I didn't have the hammer multipliers for the rush buy scenario, losing on at least 2 hammers/turn (since we'd assume at least forge, normally).
- We're not FIN and don't have access to stock exchange.

Now for the application of $$$ buy against SP workshops:

I'd normally advocate the workshops if you have the techs already, since you don't have to murderstab your science in the eye to get comparable output...BUT:

1. The gold multipliers can be in place already
2. We've assumed away unhealth here - in practice that isn't insignificant at all.
3. We have access to our maxed production a little sooner in the tech tree
4. Corporations are a trump card and can make the towns setup superior, even with a weak hammer corp like a +6 mining or something.

So, in conclusion, I'm an idiot for missing the obsoleting kremlin, and Crusher is grossly exaggerating the superiority of workshops when the kremlin is involved.

 

[Crusher1]

So, in conclusion, I'm an idiot for missing the obsoleting kremlin, and Crusher is grossly exaggerating the superiority of workshops when the kremlin is involved.

I wasn't exaggerating my 700 to 300 unit comparsion at all. Keep in mind that it takes more time for cottages to mature into towns and longer to get the Kremlin built - I'm assuming Cont/Dem will be prioritized before Communisim.......

This means Chemistry/Guild/Caste WSs will definitely be way ahead in production than someone still trying to grow into towns w/out Kremlin. And as already mentioned, WS are up in running the second you improve them so that can certainly work to the WS favor in terms of raw production.

I wasn't exaggerating in my 700 to 300 comparison game nor in my early WB examples. It takes more time for Towns to start paying off. But, it is fair to note that I did not use the Kremlin in my examples - mainly due to my game settings (small maps - normal at biggest) where you quite frequently won't have time to even finish the Kremlin before a domination has been achieved. Obviously WS surge ahead even further before the Kremlin is built.

However, I am very pleased you did the WB ^^. It shows (as I already knew) that WS will outproduce Towns, which take a long time to develop, especially when compared to newly conquered cities where WS can be up and running at full speed from the turn they are completed.

 

[Iranon]

Going into worldbuilder really isn't necessary for this... the maths behind it is trivially easy and empirical evidence is likely to introduce more confusion than it clears up... see TMIT's oversight with Fibre Optics; those things happen to me all the time
I test with worldbuilder to check whether things work out as they are supposed to (they don't always; for example civic upkeep often seems to be a few gold off), but prefer discussion based on theory.

Now, towns losing out in the example TMIT gave was to be expected. Towns with the Kremlin and only gold infrastructure produce 8.1 effective hammers to the workshops' 8.4, towns with a full complement of gold and hammer infrastructure are at 9.1 effective hammers; workshops can top them again if we raise hammer bonuses with Police State or a Military Academy (for both: 11.4 hammers for workshops, 9.6 for towns).

*

About the workshop's supposed head start... there is plenty of time to mature some towns on the before communism, this isn't as cut and dry.

You can also have all the gold multipliers early, making rushbuy rock hard in the Renaissance.
With +25% production (forge) and +100% gold on rushbuy, towns give ~5.9 effective hammers without the Kremlin long before workshops become competitive... 5 hammers after bonuses and losing food after Chemistry. Mines will be similarly left in the dust... a pitiful 2.5 final hammers before railroads, 3.75 after.

The path going there is very different though, and I use State Property and workshops quite often... they work as a quick, unintrusive fix for production that is often quicker than transitioning into a full-blown cottage economy, and they work for projects if I want to win via space. They will NOT blow towns on rushbuy away for unit production though unless we slap on things like Police State or Military Academies.

 

[0rion79]

All this in just one night? Now I'm even more confused than before

 

[TheMeInTeam]

All this in just one night? Now I'm even more confused than before

Let's make it easier then.

Assuming you want masses of troops:

1. You threw down lots of cottages and most of them are nearly mature, or you are going democracy, and these make up the majority of your cities -----> kremlin $$$ buy

2. Otherwise, SP caste workshops, whip, or draft, depending on what you need and when.

Note that most of the people arguing against $$$ rush usually don't mention the unhealth problems with factory + power, and how fending off starvation, even blow pop 10 sometimes, necessitates additional infra on top of the factory/power (though it goes up quickly at least, provided you don't need too much). There is a window where emancipation cottages come online and are modified by the gold buildings and the workshops aren't 100% yet...this is pretty much the only window that will consistently win out for cottages...after (and before) that it's much more of a grey area, although generally unless you're VERY cottage heavy it's easiest just to go workshops in as many cities as you need.

 

[Iranon]

Important life lesson, Orion79: Don't get the geeks excited by posting interesting theory unless you have some valium ready... possibly for yourself, preferably for them

*

Despite my misgivings about the method, I just worldbuildered something close to Crusher1's example... size 6 city building infantry nonstop under Universal Suffrage/Free Speech/Caste System/State Property/Paganism, working 4 grassland and 2 plains tiles to keep it stable. Cities had +100% gold and +110% production in total - full set of usual multipliers and another +10% production from State Property.
I gave myself techs up to the industrial era and gifted the native 18 gold (before towns) on 100% gold to an AI to get that out of the way.

The workshopped version required exactly 25 turns for 10 infantry units, no overflow and -3 gold (needed to reduce the gift to 17 for the last 3 turns because unit upkeep entered the picture)
The towns version also required 25 turns but ended up with 8 hammers overflow and 115 gold in the vault.

The edge might be smaller than it should be - rushbuys at 105 hammers left required 213 gold instead of the expected 210. I'm not sure if there were losses to rounding there or whether the game handled it accurately or whether that's only a consequence of the interface only displaying integers.

 

[Th3 PuNiSh3R]

I also used the world builder and work shops out performed the towns just like in Crushers and TMIT examples. Indeed work shops out produce towns. Given normal circumstances where work shops continue to surge ahead in troop count its safe to assume the person with work shops will conquer more cities at an earlier date and continue to grow their advantage.

 

[PaulisKhan]

Corporations matter... sometimes.

/hides

 

[0rion79]

Ok, thanks for the valium advice and for all the rest. Now I've tried to apply some of the hint here and I've managed to win with Mansa Musa building only essential wonders. It has been a nice game and I've won by space race even if Hamurabi was clearly in advantage by tech and some important wonders.

Now I have a very important question: in the very first game steps, I have discovered that I truly don't know what to do. The main problem is that, already at Noble level, if I build more than one city I shall have a negative budget income and it doesn't matter how many cottages I do build (even with Mansa Musa and a river, I had a lot of them that were giving me already 3 commerce but my budget was already in red). I've seen that I get some fixes to this when I can build a market and this allow me to spread my civilization some more, but it is expensive.
And also that building no more than 3 cities in the bronze age sounds the best choice because othewise I will have my research output reduced to less than 20% and I will be stuck in bronze age for a LOOONG time, and the AI will get such an advantage that I won't be able to recover. So, how do you face this problem?
Probably, in my older games, the Great Lighthouse together with the Temple of Artemis have given me some more trade routes that allowed a faster expansion... *IF* i was lucky enough to find the right combination among settlers and wonders!

And what are your most liked techs in Medieval time, the ones at which I should aim before any other?
Thank you!!!

 

[Iranon]

Expansion rate is more of a personal preference than anything else. At higher levels, some players don't want to risk a war of expansion before the Renaissance so they expand peacefully as much as possible.
This will hurt one's science for a while, but in the end more land is an asset that will allow one to recover.

Things are different when you can conquer more land at will... here you have no real reason to expand when it would be a drain on your empire's resources; build up a military and go on a conquering spree once Currency and Code of Laws allow you to hold on to almost any size empire without crashing the budget.

The how is more important than the what; city maintenance and civic upkeep both depend on population; before you have multiple trade routes, every population point carries an associated cost. Citizens working unimproved tiles can therefore result in a net loss or.
You also pay for the number of cities, so a city with limited growth will drain resources for a long time.

*

Medieval techs really depend on your empire setup... if the capital does almost all the work, Bureaucracy is great. Engineering allows steady if slow-paced war. Otherwise, bypassing many medieval techs and going for Education/Liberalism asap is popular.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Ok, thanks for the valium advice and for all the rest. Now I've tried to apply some of the hint here and I've managed to win with Mansa Musa building only essential wonders. It has been a nice game and I've won by space race even if Hamurabi was clearly in advantage by tech and some important wonders.

There are precisely 0 essential wonders in this game. Some can be really nice though.

Now I have a very important question: in the very first game steps, I have discovered that I truly don't know what to do. The main problem is that, already at Noble level, if I build more than one city I shall have a negative budget income and it doesn't matter how many cottages I do build (even with Mansa Musa and a river, I had a lot of them that were giving me already 3 commerce but my budget was already in red). I've seen that I get some fixes to this when I can build a market and this allow me to spread my civilization some more, but it is expensive.

The % slider value isn't everything. You want your beaker output to be good enough to get to key techs (writing, monarchy unless you have pyramids, alphabet, currency, and code of laws). Note that all you really need before you crash is pottery and writing. Writing to get you scientists (and a great person), and pottery to build cottages to pay your upkeep.

Early in the game all you have is the palace (8 ) and whatever passive you have on nearby improvable tiles. Pottery is really important ---> 4 hamlets or riverside cottages double up your commerce (and get better from there). Yes, the slider falls, but the net rate continues to improve.

You don't want to work only cottages early, but working them into your tile improvement lineup lets you expand more. Like to 8 (typical subpar start) to 12+(excellent start with a good rush UU or wonder like GLH) cities by 1 AD on immortal...probably many more on noble, without going into strike. Now on those levels, you have to get a trading chip tech to keep up early while doing that (use the oracle or just research aesthetics using scientists), but on noble that won't be the case. Even on monarch (I dropped down there recently for that REX game thread) I found I could stay right up with the AIs while expanding in such a fashion.