Needing more Strategic Resources

[Illuminous]

Hi,
I need some help widening my boarders and grabbing more resources, my civ is the Persians. I started off on an northeast island with 4 ivory and later, saltpeter, I then spread far west with help of my galleys and wonders to an unoccupied island with horses, then moved just west of my NE island where the Hitties were. I wiped them out because they were the weakest of the bunch, they had iron that I badly needed in order to produce my unique units, the Immortals.

The Americans have two strategic resources that I need that are quite close to my borders, oil and rubber, the problem is that their military is strong compared to my own. The Zulu's are their closest neighbors and they're very strong with quite alot of territory. They like to war with the Americans, so I could form an alliance with them to land grab but I can't seem to muster enough men to go on the offensive, and my far east island is lightly guarded an would fall quite easily. The island's city's are high in corruption because of the distance from the Palace, and the Forbidden palace doesn't seem to help much. Courthouses an Police Stations need to be built, but they take a long time!. My Goverment is Fascism, for the high unit support.

I could attack the Aztecs, but they're about 18 turns away, their military is weak. I could grab a foothold with an invasion force and then I'd have rubber, but that takes time to build up enough of an attack force.

-----------------------------------
Game: Civilization 3 Complete

Recommended save: 1838 AD

Goverments used: Despotism and Fascism.

Wonder's built: The Colossus, Statue of Zeus, The Great Lighthouse, Knight's Templar, Leonardo's Workshop, Smith's Trading Company, and the Heroic Epic.

Wonders soon to be built: Wall Street and Military Academy.

Seed: 0
Archipelago (60% Water)
Barbarians: Roaming
World Size: Large
Climate: Wet
Temperature: Temperate
Age: 4 Billion
Civilizations: 7 Random - America, Zululand, Greece, Arabia, Aztecs, Japan and Hitties.

 

[vmxa]

I will try to get to this later, Fascism is your first problem. A double edge sword. Poor governemnt and a tech you do not even want to research. Mil Acad, should be done sooner.

BTW 2.4 MB, is it an autosave? If so, best to do a manal save and post it as they will be condensed.

 

[vmxa]

Just an FYI the file is actually the saves folder with about 5 saves, so take care in the unzipping.

 

[vmxa]

Started with "Latest" 1898AD. First I hit H and find your home. It is on the Pentagon. Approx 250 units. 122 are infantry, 42 are boats (no destroyers no oil). So war will not be easy, only 7 artillery.

Wonders, the key is the ones you did not get:

Sun Tzu, Cope, Newton, Hoover and ToE. Not real fond of Smith's on an island map, not going to have time to make banks anyway or be able to put the slider on taxes, if I did.

You have a less than stellar start location. The key for me is to realize I am on an island asap. Once I see or suspect it, I am going to pack in my towns. I must get down more than 12 on a good size isalnd. If I see I have to share, I am going right to troop build up as I have to kick them off asap.

You took till the 15xxAD to start on a move to get off the island, if I got that right. That is not going to work as you are now seeing. Still you did the same thing there as you did on the island. Wide spacing and got a mere 7 towns down on land almost as large as your island.

You cannot affors to do that. No wonder your trooop support was poor, you did not have enough towns. You had a very bad shake on the resources, no coal, no rubber no oil. Hence no planes and no tanks once you learn Motor.

The other island you took is more of the same, 10 towns. It has nealry that many barricades. I would probably have 35-40 towns there. I would have ICS all the tundra. Every other tile gets a town in the tundra. Put the pop on beakers or gold. Take the
unit support.

I did not check the sequence of events, but you should have been looking for land that woudl give you the missing resources or stepping stones to them. Coal by New Intombe for instance.

I only looked at two towns and I see crazy stuff. Dock going up, but no pop works coastal tiles? Harbors, no pop on coastal tiles? These add up to 255 maint per turn. Police Stations, You cannot afford them, do not worry about corruption in places that will not even be making anything anyway. Bank going up and town makes 1 gold.

Courts are probably in nearly every town. This is killing your early progress. Do not worry about corruption that much, a few places that actually are productive, the rest put them into farms.

Ergili has stock ex, Dock, colosseum, factory, hospital and only makes 22 net shields. OMG I just noticed the gov is runing the town. No wonder is is not working the mined hill. Jacked it to 29 shields like that. If it is productive and has a factory, it needed a plant. That puts up to around 38.

One place makes around 38 beakers and has no uni.

Sell off a bunch of junk structures, disband a few units to rush settlers and fill in those holes.

Chop trees, water or mine the tile, if worked.

Get to making rifles and cavs and bombardment units. See, if you can get out of the war with Arbia, before they drop the hammer. Get the IA up and get some spies.

MAKE TOWNS all over the place and make war stuff.

 

[undertoad]

What vmxa said... vmxa's "unnecessary buildings" advice comes up again and again - but that's because we make that mistake so often!

You've got a tough war ahead of you, because the AI civs are at tech parity with you. I prefer trying to stay ahead if I can, and instantly crushing or at least destabilising any civ that looks like catching up with me in the key techs: Gunpowder, Mil Trad, Nationalism, Replaceable Parts. (By "destabilising", I mean forcing out of an efficient government - e.g. Republic - by attacking them and giving them too much War Weariness to handle). I've got the knack of this on Regent, it's not so easy on Monarch...
So as soon as Replaceable Parts came along, America with Rubber in their territory would have been No.1 on my "to-conquer" list.

On the buildings, looking at your remote island:
a) Samaria doesn't really need that Temple. The worst mood you have is 2 Content workers - you don't need to worry until the Unhappy count starts approaching the Happy count. With 4 Luxuries, Marketplaces can be a much better bet than Temples: they multiply the happiness-effect of Luxuries, and provide you with extra income when you put the tax slider up any significant amount.
b) Jinjan can survive perfectly well, and even grow, without a Harbour. At this stage the time and effort spent on building a Harbor will have marginal effect. Build units instead.
c) Istakhr's Factory is more than it can handle. As a rule of thumb, I don't build Factories unless the city is already productive enough to build one in <20 turns.
d) Tureng Tepe will need an Aqueduct soon-ish if it's to grow - but why not abandon growth for the moment, stick citz on those Forest tiles and make some units?

You can fit in 2-3 more cities between Antioch and Ghulaman - get some settlers and get that land working for you.

In general I'd say use more Taxmen/Scientists, especially out in the boonies where corruption is a problem. Courthouses and Police Stations are sticking-plaster solutions, that have very little effect on corruption and waste. The best waste-solution is WLTKD (everyone happy or content, city is >=7), which you can get reasonably easily with such a railed empire by taking citz off the land and turning them into Scientists/Taxmen.

Arabia is a tough nut to crack - territorially huge (they seem to have really done a number on the Greeks a while back), and relatively remote from you. I'd say go for the Americans. Sometimes there's no "good" choice of civ to attack, and you have to just go for the best of a bunch of bad options. Reasons to go for America:

a) Right on your doorstep; but the land front is very narrow, and thus defensible.
b) Rubber and Oil near Denver, and Silk near Atlanta - this is what you want!
c) You already have an Army in place at Hubishna, and some Galleons at Persepolis to make landings/deter an American amphibious assault.
d) With plenty in your treasury, if you can get the Zulus, Japanese and possibly Inca to join you in an alliance, you're laughing. (This also weakens the allies as they use up their armies). You already have a ROP with Shaka, which will make the Zulus quickly effective as a "real" ally (i.e. one that actually does something). The siege of Albuquerque/Miami will likely turn into a mish-mash of Persian and Zulu units. Watch out to make sure your allies don't actually get any cities out of it! Let the Zulus take down a few defenders and exhaust the forces they have in-theatre - then finish the job yourself with proper artillery support.
e) I'm looking at 1838 where you're at peace with the Arabs, but vmxa is seeing you at war (maybe looking at "Latest"?). Make peace, and see if you can get them to sell you some Rubber.

So, in short:
- You have 17 turns left on a deal with Abe Lincoln. Use this time to get on a good war footing - assuming you care about your rep, you can't attack before then (but could provoke the Americans into war if you like).
- Get Rubber from the Arabs for the moment.
- Start building some serious kit (Infantry, lots of Arty). Leonardo's will be a big help, the upgrade Cannon-Artillery and Riflemen-Infantry is ridiculously cheap.
- Get what you want out of America, and then take over the world...

Good luck!

 

[Illuminous]

Wow!, thanks for the advide guys, it will be a big help.

I have the 4000BC save, so I can restart from the beginning and use a better strategy.

In the far east I built them wide to prevent other civs from stealing my territory while I ship settlers across the sea. I like wide placement so I can eventually use all the tiles with hospitals, but if it's hindering my military I'll use tight placement instead. City Placement Article

Smith's Trading Company covers the costs of harbours (marketplaces, banks, and airports) so there not costing me anything, I build them to dish out veteran naval units when needed.

The govenor is controlling the city's because manually micromanaging them was tedious and wasn't very fun (especially managing their moods).

I realise that new resources can be discoved if you work the terrain manually, which was the case with one of the citys in the tundra area in the far west. It contained oil for my precious ships. It was found when I restarted a save and it showed up one time only!.

e) I'm looking at 1838 where you're at peace with the Arabs, but vmxa is seeing you at war (maybe looking at "Latest"?). Make peace, and see if you can get them to sell you some Rubber.

Yes he was using the latest save, but I recommeded 1938AD. I included older saves also (if needed).

 

[Illuminous]

Shouldn't I have at least five hospitals on my main island so I can build the small wonder - Battlefield Medicine?.

Is communism better for distance corruption?.

 

[vmxa]

Illuminous

"In the far east I built them wide to prevent other civs from stealing my territory while I ship settlers across the sea. I like wide placement so I can eventually use all the tiles with hospitals, but if it's hindering my military I'll use tight placement instead."

How does it prevent stealing your land? The only thing that prevents that is a strong force. The thing is that with say 8 towns, you can only get so much commnerce and can only make 8 units at a time.

If you instead had 14 towns, you can make more of everything. Hospitals are a very long way off at the start of the game.

"Smith's Trading Company covers the costs of harbours (marketplaces, banks, and airports) so there not costing me anything, I build them to dish out veteran naval units when needed."

You don't need vet naval units. All those structures cost you the game as they take a lot of shields to build. Had you made cavs instead, you could have conquered more land and the land you did, sooner. No need for airports either, airfields are good enough.

"The govenor is controlling the city's because manually micromanaging them was tedious and wasn't very fun (especially managing their moods). "

It is expensive. At least check on towns as you are forced to look at them at build end.

"I realise that new resources can be discoved if you work the terrain manually, which was the case with one of the citys in the tundra area in the far west. It contained oil for my precious ships. It was found when I restarted a save and it showed up one time only!. "

I not sure I follow this one. Resources are placed at the time the map is created. You percieve them, when you learn the proper tech. If a resource is exhausted it will be spawned some place else on a tile that mets the criteria. If it needs jungle and you cleared all yours, it cannot spawn. If it was placed during map gen, then it will still be there, even after you clear the jungle, till exhausted.

 

[Illuminous]

How does it prevent stealing your land? The only thing that prevents that is a strong force. The thing is that with say 8 towns, you can only get so much commnerce and can only make 8 units at a time.

In the beginning of the game everyone is landgrabbing with settlers, they eventually seek out land that you want and take it from you without force. I see what you mean though, I should be using my military to deny them the territory to begin with.

I not sure I follow this one. Resources are placed at the time the map is created. You percieve them, when you learn the proper tech. If a resource is exhausted it will be spawned some place else on a tile that mets the criteria. If it needs jungle and you cleared all yours, it cannot spawn. If it was placed during map gen, then it will still be there, even after you clear the jungle, till exhausted.

I used an ealier save and oil spawned in the tundra beneath my city after awhile.

I know that hospitals are far off when your in 4000BC but you need to think about the long run, no?. Persepolis and surrounding city's should be large powerhouses, you need to build wonders/structures and units.

 

[vmxa]

I am not going to have that long of a run, going to kill them before Sanitation or at least soon after it would have been learned. Even should it be a map that forces a longer game, I do not need hospitals.

If I get Sanitation from someone, I would make no more than 3 hospitals anyway. I would take a tile or 3 form another town and be happy with say 15-16 tiles.

It is possible to prevent them from sending in settlers with culture borders, IF you are strong. If not they will come anyway. The thing is to not let them scout the area in the first place. I do that by placing towns at CxxC and I have borders. Now they will not come across, if you are not weak.

If you are weak, the borders do not matter. Block those warriors with your units, so they do not knwo what is behind you, without boats.

 

[Illuminous]

Here's the new save, I started at 4000BC. I'm not doing that great wonder wise, I was beat by three turns with The Great Library. I've got alot of city's though, I took some of the Zulu's territory in the tundra, grabbing iron. I settled near the Americans but the city desposed of my goverment due to culture. I was near their capitol.

 

[vmxa]

Yeah that will often do it, raze their capitol and remove the pressure. How you have been busy going from 4000BC to 720AD. If forget your level, but GLB is not important in std games, unless you are on Deity/Sid.

If you get strong by the IA, you can get wonders the rest of the way. Other than a couple, not a big deal in the AA/MA. Play some Sid and learn to live with msgs about a wonder finishing in an age you have not even got to yet. Then you will know, wonders are like found money. Nice, but you can get by without it.

 

[vmxa]

Just a look at the layout so far. On the island with all the tundra, you are going a bit tighter, but you may as well go down to CxxC as it is going to be corrupt and not easy to get to or improve for some time.

The Zulu land should get a wall, before anything. You are spread as thin as a pancake and are a very inviting target with all the land filled on the landmass.

The home island I would have laid out somethig like my screen shot. Adjustments could be made, but the idea is 21 towns, rahter than 17. 3 additional towns on a river.

I guess you are in love with Leo's, so going for Invention rather than Knights? I know you probably want muskets too, but pikes are just fine and cheaper. (if you have iron)

I just do not think you want to wait for cavs and slow moving MDI/LB are not going to cover those wide spread towns, unless you make plenty.

 

[vmxa]

You pick up the fish and the whale, but could grab the other fish. I would probably bust a settler out of Bampur and drop it between Bora/Jin. You make coverage easier and gain a town.

I would maybe whip a pike out of Bora and move it to the new town. It is not a vet, but will have to do for now. Flip the remaining pop to a beakerhead.

 

[Illuminous]

Because I moved the capitol one tile over, it's not producing like it was. I'm really behind on wonders. I'm going to have to start over.

I can't seem to replicate what I did before. I'm such a noob.

 

[vmxa]

Not sure where the cap was, but iirc it was on green. So if you moved, why not move it to the plains and leave the grass for production? What was the goal in moving in the first place?

Why worry about wonders, this is not a race to build wonders. I am not sure of the comparison, but are you not better off currently?

Did you look at the dot map and the things I mentioned?

 

[Illuminous]

I looked at the map, I'll print it out.

I moved over one tile to make a border like a puzzle, basically to get one extra city along the south of the island. I started on a plains tile and moved the settler to a grassland tile with two food shields.

When I started over I used optimal city placement for the capital, in order to use all the tiles. The city placed above was using a tile from Pesepolis.

I need to build a granary in my settler factory in order to produce more of them, I'm lagging behind. I wish I had some more cows and game.

I can post the 4000BC save if you like.

 

[vmxa]

Just in case you were not aware of it, the city center tile gets two food, regardless of the tile it is on. That is why if I have a choice of tiles for a town and there are no other factors, I take the one that leaves the better tile to be worked.

IOW, I have a tundra and a grass tile. I plant on the tundra and leave the grass to be worked.

You really cannot afford OCP on an island.

You have say
--uuu--
xxuuuux
xxuCuxx
xxuuuxx
--xxx--

- is not part of fat cross
x is not used prior to Sanitation/Shakes
C city center
u is used if big enough.

I am ignoring that some u tiles could be swapped with x tiles. So what do we have 13 tiles
worked (with CC) and 14 dead ones. This is the best that you can do for at least 1/2 the game. Probably more than 300 turns.

You just cannot afford to kill off about half the tiles on an island for the key part of the game. That is what OCP will do for you. You need to get every tile being worked on that island or as close as you can get.

 

[undertoad]

Smith's Trading Company covers the costs of harbours (marketplaces, banks, and airports) so there not costing me anything, I build them to dish out veteran naval units when needed.

The govenor is controlling the city's because manually micromanaging them was tedious and wasn't very fun (especially managing their moods).

...

Yes he was using the latest save, but I recommeded 1938AD. I included older saves also (if needed).

Must have mis-read your original post - hopefully my advice is still relevant.

Don't forget that even "free" Marketplaces/Harbours/whatever still cost you in terms of their build time. In this certain merciless mind-set, the starting principle is that every city should be churning out Settlers, Workers, or units to go and bash other civs; for a city to build anything else it needs a very good reason.

On Harbors, I may be slightly off-base as I have far more experience with Continents maps than Islands - but I don't generally see much effective naval resistance from the AI; I mean, not enough to justify making every naval unit a Vet from the start. I usually build Harbors to open up trade, to give a food-poor city a good seafood diet, or to connect up an island or newly-conquered city to my network, for culture, luxes and resources. Apart from that, just one or two in strategic places where troops are likely to be loaded and there'll be a lot of transport traffic. To my mind the cost of a Destroyer/Cruiser justifies building it Vet - the cost of a Galleon/Frigate doesn't. (I'd have to be under severe naval pressure to go for Ironclads: dead-end tech, and they're so slow that by the time they get to the theatre of war you're probably close to Combustion anyway!).

On the Governor - I never use it. I agree that in a large empire, preventing civil disorder is a complete PITA. I do like micromanagement to some extent, but starting every turn with "Random City #57 is rioting" is just depressing. Have you tried CivAssistII? Downloadable from the Utilities forum, and if you configure the Alerts it gives you a nice "Random City #57 is about riot" message - on the turn before. (BTW, CivAssist never tells you anything you couldn't know yourself - it's an assistant, not a cheat; it does all the looking around your empire for you).

 

[Illuminous]

I appreciate all the tips, hopefully it will make me a better player.

Should I be forgeting about wonders after building a certain number of them and switch to producing military units instead?.

How soon should I be on the offensive, do I build up a large force then attack, or do I continually send out men to their deaths like the AI?.

I'm affraid of installing CivAssist II. People have reported bugs with it, and I don't want to muck up my CivIII Complete installation and have to reinstall it again.