Never saw the AI do THAT before

[kniteowl]

when I see stacks that big, I go to the options menu and change the settings to "Quick attack and Quick Defense" Seeing those Combat animation gets boring if you happen to see it 84 times in 1 turn :S lol

 

[sveint]

My last game, Emperor/Aggressive AI. I am 20 turns from space ship arrival. Ragnar has just finished vassalizing every other civ but me and has about twice my power (he is slightly behind in tech, has no modern armor or mech infantry). I am thinking I can ride it out... until over 300(!) units invade me.

Granted, not in one stack, and not as good tech as me, but I still just quit. I had perhaps 100 units total, and about 20 or 30 "reserve units". No way I could prevent Ragner from getting his last 5% land mass for domination.

Absolutely love the new AI. It still needs some tuning though.

If anyone knows how to message Blake:
-artillery should never attack single units, only stacks
-infantry is a major upgrade and should have a higher priority (the tech)

PS: At one point in this game, Ragnar was actually a vassal of Portugal. Quite a comeback!

 

[Underdawg]

Actually if your playing a peace game and are good on the defensive you can whip the aggressive AI easier than the normal AI, it techs slower, supports tons of troops it doesn't "need" and generally is over specialized for dealing with a rush.

Of course I have the opposite problem with the normal AI, it still techs slower than me (but I'm playing below my level to play with AI changes) but keeps up relatively well so long as it's able to trade freely. If there is any real flaw in it the flaw is that neither AI is really equipt to handle limited or no tech trading so I have to play with them on for a "fair" fight.

Ideally I'd like to see both options used in a single game. So some AI's are rabid unit builders, and some tech faster.

The way it is now is almost cheap. If I'm not going for war it's easier to win on aggressive AI, keep stacks in my cities, build forts, and keep fast moving units and defenders in the forts. The minute someone invades my territory attack their stack with fast unit stacks from forts and cities, make peace soon. Similiarly a rush on normal AI is an easy way to get ahead quick.

These new AI's aren't Versatile. They don't stand alone well. Together however they would be a challenge. But I can't call either one "the New Real AI". I'd have to call it more the newest exploit. It's fun to win, and to play differently than I normally do to handle the different AI's, but . . . it's still kind of cheap and eventually I'll have to force myself to NOT play well against either AI, unless we get a patch with some new options.\

Am I the only one who's seen this as a flaw in the new game design?

Not really... the way you describe your experiences I can infer a couple things... you said you play peaceful and can still win easily. But you did say you play below your level. Do you play with only the default number of civs per map? I find that to be too small a number really, human + 6-9 AI, the AI tends to be easier to manipulate (not all the time though), and it usually leaves you much more room to expand, and thus have enough land possibly without even warring to keep up in the tech race.

You are right however in saying the AI techs slower, but they are much less susceptible to human military campaigns since they actually have an adequate number of troops. Of course if you have as much or even more land than the AI, the human will tend to tech faster with his better economy and production (better tile improvement choices and usage).

I usually play with 15-18AI's so Aggressive keeps the AI not so lovey-dovey,

heck in my last Huge Marathon 15AI Terra game, I started in the middle of the continent and was boxed in from all sides, I did manage to rush my closest neighbour's capital and surrounding lands barely 15 tiles away and thought "Man, with this new land this seems it will be like and easy win, using a chariot rush and a second campaign with axes to take him down".... but now I was really extended and got boxed in by 6 different AI.... it was just war after war after war after war, statck after stack, I fended off many many times and must've got about 4 generals but I eventually retired around the early ADs.. it was pretty bad too... lost many 75% chance fights... but I kept playing until I thought it was enough after realizing I had no allies (almost no positive relationships). I don't even know why the AI attacked so much, I was about second or third in the power graph since I had so many troops from being on the defense all the time.

 

[Instant_Cereal]

Am I the only one who hates those huge stacks? I just find it all to be too tedious and more of a chore to deal with such massive military forces.

 

[Underdawg]

Am I the only one who hates those huge stacks? I just find it all to be too tedious and more of a chore to deal with such massive military forces.

Turn on Quick Attack/Defense? I don't understand whats the chore. Do you mean your own stacks? Alt+Click , Shift+Click, Ctrl+H, G, and F are all the keys you need.

 

[axident]

This happened even in WL sometimes. I recall 2 instances in particular: once when I was pushed back Monty into an isthmus city, thinking my machine guns and rifles could hold the city, along with some other misc. siege units, war elephants, and everything else I could muster. Well, Monty sent something like 30 cavalry to attack that isthmus. Standard map size.

The other time was a fractal map that was a Pangaea in disguise, except that my right flank (Spain, Rome) was completely sealed by a row of mountains. I managed to befriend Tokugawa on my left flank via religion, and of course Toku wasn't friends with anyone else so the only way anyone else could reach me was via sea. I stomped down some limited naval invasions here and there before sending my death squads of modern armor and bombers past Toku. After beating them to a pulp, I landed in Spain with 4 GG-led modern armors and several other highly-promoted mech inf and modern armor units including a GG-led mech inf who used to be an axeman way back in the day. The next turn, 47 cavalry attacked my stack. The funny part is that I took zero damage, as my best defender was a GG-led Modern Armor with Combat 6 and Drill 4 (4-7 first strikes at 70 power rating). I know it was 47 because my xp went up by twice that amount, and the GG had Leadership. Again, Standard sized map.

 

[Zunk]

In my current game (france, Prince) everything was going fine (iam number 1 on the list). I wiped germany, alexander and spain off the map took one city from Ragnar.
Then suddenly I got attacked by Ghengis Kahn (sp?) I don't know how big his stack was but I had like 20 defenders (granadiers and musketeers in my city) and I had no chance vs his stack of doom.

I hoovered the cursor over the city he just took and his stack was still over 20.

How do I check how many "items" he has in one stack?

Now, ill continue the game and see what happens.

 

[winddbourne]

Underdawg - maybe I should up the number of players and difficulty a bit. I've been keeping things fairly low key and standard to learn all the changes from the ground up. Also trying to play using different playstyles each game. Going for a diplomatic victory once, then a domination, then a conquest, etc . . . to see how each bit fits together.

 

[IronCrown]

Do you play with only the default number of civs per map? I find that to be too small a number really, human + 6-9 AI, the AI tends to be easier to manipulate (not all the time though), and it usually leaves you much more room to expand, and thus have enough land possibly without even warring to keep up in the tech race.

Most people agree that playing with more than the standard number of AIs on a map makes the game actually a lot easier. While I like to play with more but smaller empires, I have to admit that it is indeed easier. The AI can expand faster and support more cities than the player, so if you deny them this advantage, you make it easier for yourself.

Concerning the AIs teching slowly with aggressive option on: I agree that it is or seems slower, but I noticed that at the end of the game there are still one or more AIs that have the same tech level as in a game with normal AI. So while you see more backwardly and ******** warmonger-AIs in such games, there are also those who managed to get enough tech through conquest, or by avoiding the wars. Those often vassalize the early-game warmongers.

At least I can confirm that with 'aggressive' on some AI always starts building their spaceship by mid of the 20th century (on Monarch level), or even earlier.

 

[B.R.]

When/if you annihilate that initial attack-squad, then they are left behind with a very poor defence. Thats my observation anyway. And also rather weird that they dont spread out, instead of having 50+ units in one stack of doom...

I agree. If I can deal with those initial stacks from a neighbor declaring war, a quick invasion can take quite a few cities from him, sometimes they leave border cities with under 6-7 units. And it usually gets better the deeper you invade their territory, but that depends on how devastating the initial stacks were.
They do seem to prefer huge-stacking to smaller, spread out balanced stacks.
Those would be harder for me to deal with, as I rely a lot on defensive collateral damage.

I love the two front attacks - Ragnar and Hannibal seem to love invading your west with a huge stack, just as you see their navies approaching your eastern shores from the fog...

Downside for me is war seems almost unavoidable. I guess I have to better my diplomatic play and other aspects, but if I survive and I'm a contender for victory, the AI seems to almost have to declare war with all those units. Makes sense, it's kinda his best option...
And those numbers cause quite long turns and waits during wars. Good for coffee time, I guess.

 

[IronCrown]

I agree. If I can deal with those initial stacks from a neighbor declaring war, a quick invasion can take quite a few cities from him, sometimes they leave border cities with under 6-7 units. And it usually gets better the deeper you invade their territory, but that depends on how devastating the initial stacks were.

How could it be otherwise? Any reasonable human player attacks with one or few large stacks which means that unless he has multiple the numbers of his enemy anyway, he must leave his cities relatively poorly defended. If someone attacks and their offensive force is completely wasted while the defender has forces left to counter-attack, the initial attacker is screwed. Of course this means that the attacker was too weak to attack in the first place -> he made the wrong move.

And those numbers cause quite long turns and waits during wars. Good for coffee time, I guess.

I can't believe there are still people out there who don't play with stack attack and quick combat. Sure, I watched those nice animations too... for my first three games two years ago

 

[B.R.]

...he made the wrong move.

That's what I was saying.

I can't believe there are still people out there who don't play with stack attack and quick combat. Sure, I watched those nice animations too... for my first three games two years ago

Why are you assuming what my settings are?
I have QC on and animations off, if it really matters for you.
The turns are longer, at least for me, because of unit management,
although the new shortcuts for controlling stacks help.
The wait between turns.. maybe I don't have a brand new machine like others, but for me they do get quite long.
It is obviously better than CIVIII late game wars, and for me currently worth the epic battles.

 

[IronCrown]

Sorry, I read several posts lately where people reported how they would go and have a coffee after ending their turn and when they returned the AI was still attacking. So I thought it was the same with you

 

[winddbourne]

In my previous experience more AI's made it easier to take them out one by one, EXCEPT on larger maps such as Ghengis Kia's where each had space to grow strong in their own region. I'd assumed that underdawg was telling me this had changed on higher end BTS, but Ironcrown seems to be saying things are the same. So perhaps my initial observations weren't as far off. Either way more play will tell the tale. Fun. lol

Can't wait to try try kai's map with bts. Hope it comes out soon.::grins:: But not too soon. I'm still working on strategies. ::grins::