New Air Unit Mission Ability: Attack (Straffing)

yoshi

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The fact that Fighters in Civ3 are essentially bombers with the ability to go on 'Superiority' missions tends to leave the fighter wanting as a field unit --or leaves the Bomber wanting as Fighter without the 'Superiority' ability.

In order to give both a greater uniqueness and to reproduce the effect of Fighters staffing (using guns to attack ground units), I figured: why not inlcude a new unit ability that would allow air units to attack ground units directly?
More accurately, this would be a new air mission: Attack (as opposed to Bombard). Fighter on this mission type would essentially attack ground units just like a ground unit; i.e. ground units can shoot back (if Ranged and non-Artillary). This means that either the ground unit or the attacking air unit is certain to be destroyed during combat.
This would give Fighters greater uniqueness in the field and would be a good way to finish off weakened units, only doing so would include the risk of losing the Fighter.
Note that air units are already set to do have an attack value (in addition to Bombard) but thus far only use it during Superiority Missions. The targeting mechanism would work the same way bombardment does --including the 'Stealth Attack' to this might be interesting.

I personally think that this would make air-based combat more fun and interesting, while also distiguishing between the Bomber and Fighter roles.
 
Nah, I disagree, but I wish they'd add bomber support missions for fighters. Your fighter on a bomber support mission will engage an enemy fighter in a dogfight so it can't shoot down your bomber.
 
I like the general idea, but I am not sure about the stealth attack or losing the plane. What would the plane's strafe attack be, his attack value or bombard value?
 
I would like to see an Air Superiority mission where you could pick a spot where to conduct a mission. Currentley your fighters are defending only in the city or airbase (and around them), but it would be nice if you could send them to attack an city's air defense or airbase and engade an dogfight.
 
I agree that fighters should be able to perform a kind of 'lethal bombard' strafe attack against ground units, but that said units would then have an ability to injure, or even destroy, the fighter!! At the moment, fighters really have all too little to do! Also, I think there should be an actual "Escort" bomber mission. Where fighters can provide protection to your indvading bombers, where they will then conduct an air superiority mission against any defending fighters in the city being bombed!!! After all, that's how things were done during WWII!!!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.
 
Nah, I disagree...
That's fine, but why?
I wish they'd add bomber support missions for fighters. Your fighter on a bomber support
mission will engage an enemy fighter in a dogfight so it can't shoot down your bomber.
I agree, that woud be another good way of differentiating between Fighter and Bomber units. I did this with the Human-controlled Fighters in Civ2 by giving them 2 Fuel so they could 'hover' on the same square as Bombers.
It would be a nice option, although that would be a question of defense. The 'Attack' Mission I am proposing would be a question offensive air combat.
Naturally the two would work in conjunction with each other.

...but I am not sure about the stealth attack or losing the plane.
I was just toying with the idea of giving the Fighter that flag so it could target individual units in a stack --I'm not sure if the 'Stealth Attack' flag can work with Bombardment, or even air units for that matter.
The part about losing the plane is really just for balance purposes (i.e. and to give the defending ground units a chance and to prevent air units with the Attack Mission ability from being to powerful --that is, there has to some downside to using this Mission type).
The 'Attack' Mission implies that, like all combat (aside from Bombardment) in Civ3, the defending unit or the Attacking units MUST be destroyed; i.e. the first to run out of HPs/Health first. If ground units can't counter-attack, then air units with the 'Attack' Mission ability can essentially attack them until the defending unit is destroyed (Attack Missions signify an ASSURED KILL). For this reason, ground units MUST be able to counter-attack, otherwise Fighters would be too lethal and would make Bombardment redundant.
Replacing Bombard Missions with 'Attack' Missions is certainly not my intention. I like the Bombardment ablity (I can't belive it wasn't in Civ2) and it is a logical part of the game --essentially representing the 'softening' of targets before attack. The Attack flag means that Fighters can finish of ground units that have been weakened by Bombardment, or destroy weak, uprotected targets (such as enemy Fighters still on the ground for instance --I assume this is where the 'Stealth Attack' flag would come in handy).
Non-Ranged and Artillary ground units cannot counter attack therefore without protection, they are fodder for Fighters (as is the case in reality).

As you can see, the Attack Missions and Bombard Missions would best work together.
Also, this would eliminate the need to send ground units to finish off targets not destroyed by bombardment.
What would the plane's strafe attack be, his attack value or bombard value?
Attack/Defense value.

I would like to see an Air Superiority mission where you could pick a spot where to conduct a mission.
I agree. At present, defending units on the Air Superiority Missions have too much of an advantage over offensive air units. This would be a way of balancing things out. I assume that this would be implied when using the 'Support' Mission ability proposed by marceagleye.

...would then have an ability to injure, or even destroy, the fighter!!
That's the idea. See my reply to BomberEscort.
At the moment, fighters really have all too little to do!
Part of the reason for the proposed, 'Attack' Mission ability is to increase the level of usefulness of Fighters.
...I think there should be an actual Escort" bomber mission.
See my reply to marceagleye.
(Clearly that Mission type is a priority among civers. Maybe it should get its own thread.)
 
Hmm... This is an intriguing idea, indeed! However, I would offer the following modifications to it, with reasons following:

1) The fighter cannot kill any units. Typically, striffing is used to injure and/or scatter units, or otherwise cause chaos. Very rarely (if ever) would a fighter be sent in to pick of a tank (highly unlikely) or an infantry unit (highly impractical); it simply is not precise enough or powerful enough. From a game play balance, this would tend to be too powerful; players could simply send fighter after fighter to attack units before they can even get close!

2) The fighter will attack ALL units in the stack. This will simulate the patern of fire layed down by strifing, namely firing in a line from one unit to the next. Again, as in (1), strifing is not very precise, and generaly has a spread out area of effect. Since fighters are air units, they would take a pass at the units, rather than a simple ranged attack or a hit-and-run attack. From a gameplay standpoint, this trait will place the fighter in a class of it's own, not only from bombers, but from any other unit as well!

3) The fighter can only do up to one point of damage to each unit in the stack. As in (2), the unit is simply passing over the target(s), and typically only has one pass; the line of fire is moving constantly, and is never in a single spot long enough to do more than this. From a gameplay standpoint, this is to (a) keep the unit from being too powerful and (b) so that the unit does not outclass other units (ie, radar artillary) in every way. In other words, to ensure a variety of unique and usefull units, each with their own advantages and disadvantages.

4) The fighter can be attacked by any and all units in the target square. Typically when a fighter straifs, the attacked units will get out of the way, and then return fire; this would simulate that. Additionaly, fighters must fly low over the target (unlike bombers), and must approach/pass over the target (unlike ground artillary). From a game standpoint, this will mean that the more units in the stack, the more enticing it is to attack them, but the more risk the fighter takes on.

5) Units in the stack may only do up to one point of damage each on the attacking fighter. Fighters do pass by at considerable speed and, amidst the chaos of the attack, any ground units would not have an opportunity to do any more damage than that.

6) Finally, units in the stack CAN destroy the fighter if it runs out of hitpoints. While ground units may not have a large window in which to return fire, if there are enough of them, they can inevidabaly destroy the fighter. From a game standpoint, this will also prevent the player from exploiting the fighter by sending in a fighter with only one hit point.

Yeah, I realize that this COMPLETELY changes the ideas that you had proposed, but I think that these changes will go a long way towards making the unit unique and ensuring that the fighter is used, while not rendering any existing units obsolete. Any thoughts...?
 
Originally posted by yoshi
I was just toying with the idea of giving the Fighter that flag so it could target individual units in a stack --I'm not sure if the 'Stealth Attack' flag can work with Bombardment, or even air units for that matter.

This could be interesting... would make it an early precision fighter for units... How would this work when straffing sea units and would the ship get to counter attack? Based on the ship this may or may not be possible. Maybe wooden ships could not counterattack but modern ones could...

Originally posted by yoshi
The part about losing the plane is really just for balance purposes

I was picturing from your post that it would function more like artillery with lethal land bombard on, but upon further thought the straffing aircraft would have to get close to the ground thereby inviting a counter-attack... Maybe a new category called strafe... so a fighter would be 4 attack/2 bombard/4 strafe... strafe being only used against ground troops in open terrain, I don't know about fortresses though... or give it double attack against ground units or something. If you increase the bombard too much then it will be to useful vs cities. We definately need one attack (bombard) for cities and bombing missions and one (strafe) for attacking ground troops in the open...

BTW, is it possible for modern jet aircraft to strafe???
 
Originally posted by yoshi
More accurately, this would be a new air mission: Attack (as opposed to Bombard). Fighter on this mission type would essentially attack ground units just like a ground unit; i.e. ground units can shoot back (if Ranged and non-Artillary). This means that either the ground unit or the attacking air unit is certain to be destroyed during combat.

If this is a mission, would this happen automatically everytime a unit is within range, would you be given a popup letting you know a unit is within strafing range, or would this have to be controlled manually? I am also worried with the low attack value of fighters that they would need a bonus when straffing (maybe 100%) or they would consistently lose to any unit with a defense of 6 or higher... But I do like the idea... lets hash out the details :D I love anything to do with fighters (see avatar ;) )
 
Before I reply to anyone I want to state that when I said 'staraffing' I just wanted a term that would represent some kind of ground attack. What I meant was any attack that does not include high altitude bombardment --not limited to guns only. This keeps with the simple nature of CIV; i.e. technically a unit is not just one guy, it reperesents a group.

The fighter cannot kill any units.
This would defeat the purpose. In WW2 fighters would not pick off every single last guy on the ground, but a surprise attack could potentially decimate a group to virtually nothing --CIV is not that exact: if you win, it's the equivilant of killing most of the guys to point where they are just scattered survivors; i.e. a few guys don't constitute a unit.
Although you're right, ground attack is usually only partially successful, while the Fighter shouldn't die just because it missed.
Placing artificial limitations on air-ground combat will tend to be complicate things, so why not just give the Fighter a retreat ability, thus preventing it from being destroyed if the ground units is winning?

I think the simplest solution would be to just take away the Bombard ability from the Fighter so that players have no choice but to risk losing the unit --after all, WW2 Fighters would rarely bombard from high altitudes; i.e. they either dive-bomb or make low-level flight and drop right before getting to the target. Of course, this just means that if they have a choice, players will use their Bombers instead. The only reason not to would be that the Attack Mission never fails to get a hit, unlike Bombardment. Yet the risk of losing the Fighter is still worse than a failed Bombardment.
As you can see, the reasons for simplifying the Attack Mission are clear. By just using normal combat, the Fighter has an advatage over the Bomber in an assured kill (if it wins) in addition to an assured hit. I would personally just give the Fighter the retreat ability, thus having the fighter pull out if things get too hairy. It's nt as realistic as your idea, but its keeps with CIV's simplicty.

From a game play balance, this would tend to be too powerful; players could simply send fighter after fighter to attack units before they can even get close!
The purpose of allowing ground units to counter-attack is precicely to prevent the Fighter from being too powerful. If you attack with any other unit, the same thing happens the only difference is that a ground unitcan't fly back to base after attacking. If you know they're coming, you will bombard them, so why not Attack them too?
The fighter will attack ALL units in the stack.
Bombardment in SMAC does that. It implies 'collatoral damage.' Considering some of the people who worked on that also worked on Civ3, I never understood why Civ3 Bombardment doesn't work this way.
So, if anything Bombardment should do that, whereas Attack is more specific. Its assumed that the various units (i.e. groups of guys) are separated, so the fighter would have to go from one to another --don't take CIV too literally.
The fighter can only do up to one point of damage to each unit in the stack.
To similar to non-lethal Bombardment. It would just make the Fighter's attack inferior to Bombardment.
...so that the unit does not outclass other units (ie, radar artillary) in every way.
Other units have different functions. The idea behind the Fighter is that it has the ground unit's ability to attack and and the air unit's ability to do so though Air Missions. Artillary units are differnt from Bombers because they are ground units, nothing more. Fighters are designed to finish off units on the ground and to provide air cover. The way to duplicate this is just to give the Fighter a low Attack thus heavily-armed ground units can wear it down and cause it to retreat before it kills them. This essentially has the effect of limiting the Fighter to the effect you suggested, without adding in any extra air unit attack rules.
The fighter can be attacked by any and all units in the target square.
That's getting into the issue of grouped (i.e.simultaneous) unit attack/defend. CIV should be able to do that, but can't. So, although it is a good and sensible idea, it can't be done at present.
Units in the stack may only do up to one point of damage each on the attacking fighter.
That can be more easily addressed by giving the Fighter a retreat ability when its health goes into the red, as stated above.
...units in the stack CAN destroy the fighter if it runs out of hitpoints.
I refer you to my reply concerning groups.

How would this work when straffing sea units and would the ship get to counter attack? Based on the ship this may or may not be possible. Maybe wooden ships could not counterattack but modern ones could...
Any ship with the Ranged flag and A/D factor could counter-attack. Older ships have low defense and fewer hitpoints, so the Fighter would kill every time. Modern ships would defend just like any Ranged land unit.
(I was thinking that for scneario purposes, a "100% Attack vs. Ships" flag could be given to Torpedo Bomber units.)
Maybe a new category called strafe...
I think that's getting a little too specific for CIV. Besides, there is not need since Bombard Missions weaken (and sometimes kill) and Attack Missions kill (if they win). The flag thing would have some useful applications.
BTW, is it possible for modern jet aircraft to strafe???
Yes, but they tend to over-shoot, especially in the early days.
If this is a mission, would this happen automatically everytime a unit is within range,
It would work the same way Bombard Missions do.
I am also worried with the low attack value of fighters that they would need a bonus when straffing (maybe 100%) or they would consistently lose to any unit with a defense of 6 or higher...
If my suggestion is used, the Fighter will retreat if close to death. But will have an easy time with weak ground units.

-----------------------------------------
To give you all an idea:
Picture Bombers weakening enemy ground forces and Fighters moving in to finish off whatever's left.
Isn't that essentially how it works in reality?

Some good replies. I'm interested in ideas concerning air combat flags, any suggestions?
 
  • +100% Attack vs Ships- Signifies the vulnerability of sea vessles
  • +100% Attack vs Land- For strafe missions
  • +100% Defense vs Land- Fast moving aircraft are hard to hit with rifles
  • Ranged- Unit has the capability to attack low flying air units
 
Jets should be able to strafe. But you should also be able to develop the technology to allow them to use chemical weapons (like agent orange) that have a higher attach value and a chance of leaving the attacked area polluted. Ground units should only be able to defend against attach if they have some sort of anti-aircraft weapon. (eg pik men can't shoot down your F-15) but their should always be a chance that the jet crashes during the mission. This would give aircraft the advantage that they truly have in the modern military. Most modern wars have been won by aircraft. Israel has the strongest air force in the world right now, using American technology and financial support, but if it wasn't for there air force the country would no longer exist.
 
+100% Attack vs Ships
It would give air units with that a big advantage over even the thoughest ships. That would also make the AEGIS Cruiser all the more valuable.
+100% Attack vs Land- For strafe missions
This one would be good fo scenarios where there are variations on Fighters; e.g. Typhoons were not well suited to air superiority but were a sight to be seen when attacking ground targets.
+100% Defense vs Land- Fast moving aircraft are hard to hit with rifles
This complements the '+100 Attack vs. Land' flag; i.e. Typhoons were faster than most Fighters that size (just not as manuverable) so gound units would have a hard time hitting it.
Ranged- Unit has the capability to attack low flying air units
Yep. Even an Archer could technically shoot upwards towards an oncoming Fighter, it's just that the Fighter would then turn the Archer to paste; i.e. in civ terms the Fighters hit points and A/D are so much higher than pre-gunpowder units that it always wins.

...you should also be able to develop the technology to allow them to use chemical weapons (like agent orange) that have a higher attach value and a chance of leaving the attacked area polluted.
Nice idea, but this is more a question of Bombardment. This also seems to be something of an upgrade; i.e. once 'Chemical Weapons' tech discovered air units get their Bombard values increased. Unfortunately, the Civ3 'upgrades' just mean that the unit is replaced by another unit. The units values remain the same. It would be nice if tech Advances had flags like: '+100% Bombardment for Air Units.'
The other alternative of course is to include a new Mission Type: 'Chemical Attack. This would have the effect you described of leavuing pollution. Still, Conquests will include a feature similar to this in which Bombarded squares 'change' to creaters, so it might not be worth including a whole new Mission type just for this effect.
...units should only be able to defend against attach if they have some sort of anti-aircraft weapon.
That's the idea behind the 'Ranged' flag; only Ranged units can return fire --albiet without much effect if they are pre-gunpowder.
A Mobile SAM unit for instance, would have both the Ranged flag and the AEGIS flag so it would have a huge advantage when being attacked in this way.
Most modern wars have been won by aircraft.
Hense, part of my reasoning behind including this Fighter ability; i.e. if Fighters can finish what Bombardment doesn't, there is no need for the presence of friendly ground units --since the war is won by air power.
Israel has the strongest air force in the world right now, using American technology and financial support, but if it wasn't for there air force the country would no longer exist.
You mean the strongest air force in the Middle East and among the strongest in the world. Air power had much to do with this but their ground forces (especially Special Forces) are pretty effective. (They seem to be auwfully good at taking out stone-throwing kids with a high level of effectiveness --and that's without even having the aid of air support!) But point taken.
 
Now that I think of it, the Attack Mission ability could be used by Attack Choppers! One of the reasons why there aren't any in Civ3 is because all they could do is Bombard which would be ridiculous. Using the Attack Mission, Attack Helicopters could directly confront ground units, but would be at a disadvantage vs. Fighters.

(With this in mind, it would be intersting if Apaches, for instance, could be given the 'Artillery' role which would allow them to Bombard a target without actually flying over it; i.e. cannot be shot down by enemy Fighters. This in addition to a 'V/STOL' flag that would allow then to rebase on any land square, with or without an Air Base, would make for a really cool unit --truely muli-role.)
 
I think the current Bombard of Fighters is fine (except a stat boost for all planes would be nice)

IMO, what's needed is the ability for Fighters to escort Bombers (And Dog Fight other Fighters).
Also, certain ships (Maybe Aegis Cruisers) should get AA guns (works like a SAM Missile Battery and shoots down enemy planes)
 
Originally posted by Louis XXIV
Also, certain ships (Maybe Aegis Cruisers) should get AA guns (works like a SAM Missile Battery and shoots down enemy planes)

I agree with this... The AEGIS Cruiser should enable the 100% vs Air flag that I mentioned above... An AEGIS Cruiser has a defenses of 10 (20 v.s. Air attacks). With the fighter's ability to strafe at 4 Attack, the fighter has only a 16.7% chance of inflicting one hp of damage on the AEGIS Cruiser (assuming the fighters stats do not change from PTW). If it was a fight to the death, an elite fighter would have roughly a 1% chance to defeat an elite AEGIS Cruiser... with the likely result being one hp of damage to the AEGIS Cruiser.
 
Originally posted by yoshi
Yep. Even an Archer could technically shoot upwards towards an oncoming Fighter, it's just that the Fighter would then turn the Archer to paste; i.e. in civ terms the Fighters hit points and A/D are so much higher than pre-gunpowder units that it always wins.

This would require a new flag differentiating between units capable of returning fire and units not... like the ranged flag. What units should be able to return fire...

Infantry
Guerilla
Marine
Mech Infantry
Modern Armor
Paratrooper
AEGIS Cruiser
 
Well slap me silly and call me Sid! Miracles do happen.
Just kidding. Atari reps. like Jeff are always cruising CFC for new stuff --that's good.

With that in mind, I'll try and tone down on my knocking of the Co.

If Atari were to include something mentioned in this thread, it would certainly make me one happy civer. Although it's probably a bit late in the game to add in a whole new mission type...but you never know.

(Thanks for the tip.)
 
Originally posted by BomberEscort


I agree with this... The AEGIS Cruiser should enable the 100% vs Air flag that I mentioned above... An AEGIS Cruiser has a defenses of 10 (20 v.s. Air attacks). With the fighter's ability to strafe at 4 Attack, the fighter has only a 16.7% chance of inflicting one hp of damage on the AEGIS Cruiser (assuming the fighters stats do not change from PTW). If it was a fight to the death, an elite fighter would have roughly a 1% chance to defeat an elite AEGIS Cruiser... with the likely result being one hp of damage to the AEGIS Cruiser.


What about something a little different? The AEGIS cruiser shoots back at the aircraft with a missle, just like how a SAM site fires a missle while it defends a city. The same could also be applied to some form of AA ground unit, to help defend troops. (How ever, something would need to be adjusted so as you can't make a place inpenitrable to air attack.)
 
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