New and improved RoP backstab: now RoP-free!

[Random Passerby]

Er... I knew that the AI could get awfully paranoid when it comes to declaring foul on treaty breaks, but this one's new to me.

I get off to a rather mediocre start on a smallish cruddy continent, shared with France. Luckily our continent had its own luxury, but unfortunately most of it ended up in France's hands, and I was somewhat behind and needed a golden age and some expansion anyways. So I start massing a few samurai, look at my diplomacy state with France, realize I have a horse sale still going to France for a few turns (I'd have kicked myself for that one, although I needed it to buy my way up to Chivalry in the first place and as it turned out France didn't build a single knight until the war was nearly over), so I postpone my invasion and mass a few more samurai. The deal runs out, my samurai happily swarm over the borders and start sitting on a hill right next to an AI city.

Now, as is always the case when you dump a largish stack of attack units directly adjacent an AI city, Joan comes up with the "Move automatically or else!" box. I opt for "or else" and declare war at this screen, then proceed watch as some miscellaneous French units start swarming menacingly along the border. Then I merrily cut numerous chunks out of France until my people start whining, and was on my way to becoming a reasonably powerful nation when I noticed that several of my French acquisitions needed worker development and had no road access except through territory that was still French. So I figured, what the hell, might as well get a ROP and save a few turns. I buy an embassy, go to see if I can squeeze anything out of France for the RoP (since I now was so much larger and more powerful) and lo and behold, France "would never accept such a deal" with just a RoP on the table. I ask around and, yes, word is that I have indeed RoP-backstabbed France, and the fact that I didn't even have an embassy and thus could not have possibly had an RoP with France prior to my attack does not seem to impress the AI civs.

Any clue what might be going on? I would be basically OK if the AI civs all got mad at me for trying to sneak in before attacking, but I could've sworn I've done this before without such a huge reputational hit. Besides, it's a matter of accuracy; calling me a treacherous sneak I could see, but telling me I've broken right-of-passage agreements in the past when I've yet to sign any is something else altogether.

 

[GeneralTacticus]

It has been my experience that if you declare war when asked to leave someone's territory (maybe only if you said previously you would leave?) then it is counted as a ROP betrayal.

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Originally posted by GeneralTacticus
It has been my experience that if you declare war when asked to leave someone's territory (maybe only if you said previously you would leave?) then it is counted as a ROP betrayal.

Ridiculous as it is, that's exactly what happenes. never seen that before 1.21.......

What I also like especially is moving my troops next to the enemies last city, contact him and I squeeze all his tech and gold out of him for peace.
I end turn, he pops up and say: "Leave - or els!" Can't the stupid AI at least get some sense of proportion and manners? I mean, can there be worse timing??????

Needless to say, they never survive these demands

But from then on I'm a pariah! I mean, can you see Germany go: leave - or else! in 1950????? So why do i get hit in rep when I respond appropriately to an insult??????????????

 

[Trabpukcip]

I just the exact same problem... the Brits don't want a rop becose they I've broken one before, but it never occured... and the problem doesn't come from patch 1.21 since I'm still using 1.17f becose I'm a mac user...

 

[Sullla]

Declaring war while on someone else's territory is considered by the AI to be the same thing as violating a ROP agreement. It's a diplomatic blackmark, and it probably should be since you were trying to sneak attack the computer. Just declare war from the diplomatic screen before moving your forces into their territory and you will be OK.

 

[Moonsinger]

Originally posted by Sullla
Declaring war while on someone else's territory is considered by the AI to be the same thing as violating a ROP agreement. It's a diplomatic blackmark, and it probably should be since you were trying to sneak attack the computer. Just declare war from the diplomatic screen before moving your forces into their territory and you will be OK.

That's not fair! All AI civs have done that to me many times. They often wander freely inside my border with a couple settlers and some troops. Whenever I ask them to leave, they declare war immediately.

 

[joycem10]

we all know the AI works under different rules than we do.

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by joycem10
we all know the AI works under different rules than we do.

Not necessarily. Are you asserting that the AI doesn't take a reputation hit?

 

[Masquerouge]

To be more accurate, I'd say the AI doesn't work under the same intelligence as we do

Like they need to cross your territory in order to fight with another CIV, will never agree to sign a ROP (will even ask YOU money for it !), and thus will declare war to you the fourth time you ask them out ?

I hope these are not AI specific rules

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Masquerouge
To be more accurate, I'd say the AI doesn't work under the same intelligence as we do

Like they need to cross your territory in order to fight with another CIV, will never agree to sign a ROP (will even ask YOU money for it !), and thus will declare war to you the fourth time you ask them out ?

There is not doubt that the AI has some advantages in order to make creation of such a game practical. However, the AI will often agree to a RoP without payment. If the AI feels it must attack another Civ across your territory, and you keep insisting that they leave or declare war, then war it will be.

 

[zeeter]

After one turn in another civ's territory we all get the move out declaration. After that, if still in their territory we get a couple of turns grace before we get the move out or else declaration. To me, this grace period is a temporary ROP. The AI is letting me slide a few turns, as long as I don't move next to a city. The "Get out now <your forces will move automatically>" is another example of a temporary ROP.
I have no problem with this. Like the other guy said - just wait outside their border before declaring war to avoid the reputation hit.

 

[etj4Eagle]

It may not be a ROP breaking but the logic from the sneak attack (declaring war while already inside your opponents territory) to breaking a ROP to declare war is not that big of a leap. You already shown once that you would position your troops inside enemy lines before declaring war, now who in their right mind would want to make it even easier for you to fully deploy your contigent (especially once rail roads are available).

 

[Random Passerby]

Hmph. The AI should be considerably less gung-ho about doing things that have permanent reputational penalties for the human player. If the AI civs only did it ocassionally, sure, I could see that, but AI civs almost always prefer to happily get several tiles into your territory before declaring war and attacking.

 

[Dralix]

Originally posted by Random Passerby
Hmph. The AI should be considerably less gung-ho about doing things that have permanent reputational penalties for the human player. If the AI civs only did it ocassionally, sure, I could see that, but AI civs almost always prefer to happily get several tiles into your territory before declaring war and attacking.

You have to keep in mind that your actions and reputation will affect the AI's actions. Sure the AI will advance their troops into your territory before attacking if you have done the same. But at the same time, other nations will be more wary of them.

 

[Evincar]

Originally posted by Zachriel


Not necessarily. Are you asserting that the AI doesn't take a reputation hit?

Probably not: I've seen France attacking, breaking at the same time a deal, a RoP and a MPP, and none declared war on them . In fact, they would still trade happily with the very wicked Joan, and would never join my struggle againts them, no matter what I paid. My reputation was spotless as it is always in my games (except when I enter at war via MPP..I already wrote a thread about that). Needless to say, I lost that game.

Just try to do the same!! everyone automatically gets annoyed with you and you will be hated forever...but the AI...oh, we all know it had good intentions

 

[Random Passerby]

Originally posted by Dralix

Sure the AI will advance their troops into your territory before attacking if you have done the same.

Yes, of course they will. Of course, they will also do it if you have yet to ever declare war on anyone! If you give an AI that's the least bit unhappy with you an automatic leave-or-war message, they will opt for war most of the time. I can understand the reputational hit for humans doing this, but if this is an action that will permanently ban the human player from RoP agreements, then it shouldn't be standard AI practice.

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Evincar

Probably not: I've seen France attacking, breaking at the same time a deal, a RoP and a MPP, and none declared war on them .

Perhaps Joan didn't break the treaty, but merely cancelled it. I will often cancel treaties and declare war in the same turn. All done legally and according to the rules of war. And of course, on higher levels your wealth and knowledge are discounted, as if you were trading in Argentine Pesos v. Dollars and Deutschmarks for everyone else. This "inflation" is set by the player at the start of the game when choosing the level. The AI sees you as a poor beggar at the bargaining table.

 

[Trinity]

I also wish you could find out how other civs feel about each other.

Of course you can always mess with the AI if they violate your territory and you give the a leave or else and they declare war, you go for an alliance with the civ they're attacking, and give THEM an RoP. You will be viewed as punishing the aggressor and the civ you have the RoP will become gracious.

 

[Machi]

Yes, I've never totally understood why in the world we have to get out of dodge:

"Get out now <your forces will move automatically>"

after one or two requests but the AI can just swagger all over the place when asked over and over and over again to get out or declare war.

It is obviously lopsided. But it is so unfair that I don't know why it was programed in? Why can't we just have the same rules for both AI and human players?

Oh well, I think Civ3 sucks until you can play human vs human. But that's just me.

 

[Kilroy]

I prefer it this way actually. And I've observed that the AI's reputation is effected when it breaks treaties although, I'll admit, probably not as much as the human player.

However, for some perspective:

Japan declared war on the US before they attacked Pearl Harbor. About 15 minutes before, I believe. So even for the second-most famous sneak attack in recent memory, everything was handled as it should have been, diplomatically speaking. And, we don't seem to be holding any huge grudges against the Japanese (although admittedly, most people think it was a "true" sneak attack - so there goes my point I guess).

As for the most famous sneak attack in recent memory well, most Americans aren't too fond of middle eastern cultures right now, and probably won't be for quite a while.