new art in progress

[mamba]

The Combat Vehicle apparently has some issues with its team color not working correctly (see thread), if someone could fix those it would be great

 

[GeoModder]

I'm not sure I had seen the apartment buildings, or I didn't notice at the time. Geomodder is working on some new xml/nif for city ruins, and these buildings might go into them fairly nicely. These buildings are related to the ruined city set, also by woodelf, which is the basic city graphic I'm using.

You haven't found the attachment yet with flatland city ruins?

 

[davidlallen]

You haven't found the attachment yet with flatland city ruins?

Sadly I was out of touch for a few days (Thu-Sun) and I read this thread before the other thread. I am now all caught up. Thanks for your work!

 

[arkham4269]

I saw the slimy oceans. I didn't want to make the entire ocean like this. One of the ideas I had was to make the rivers downstream of ruins polluted and then have a "bloom" into the ocean which is also polluted, and make sure that the polluted water does not count as fresh or yield any food. Then some players could clean the rivers and oceans to make them productive again. I couldn't figure out how to do two kinds of river graphics, however, so I put that idea on the back burner.

Not to bring up FfF/FF again, but they do have a mechanic that might work here. Depending on the time frame of the turns, you could have certain bad terrain such as polluted lands (similar to tundra or desert) and ocean bloom zones that start the game that way and then 'upgrade' over time. FfF/FF have a flag you can set in custom games where the game starts with the world cold and gradually warms up so that code might be useful here.

Plus, as the tech gets higher, you might be able to clear these zones more. For example, polluted land might 'upgrade' to habitable (maybe a weak plains?) and later eco-tech your workers could upgrade it to grasslands.

For that matter, FF has these lizard races that have marsh & swamps. If there is global warming going on, you would have lots of this. Plus, I'm a big fan of different roads to victory. Throughout history there have been peoples who have lived in areas other people couldn't conceive of. Prior to Saddam Hussein killing most of them off, there were these swamp people that lived most of their lives on boats. It's sort of evolution in action: I'm in danger, do I take to the oceans (become a whale) take to the trees (become a primate) or take to the savannah (become human). In Fury Road you'd have people who might take to the swamps because while it might not have a lot of resources (in a mining sort of way) it does keep you protected from the crazy bad-guys on wheels. These civs might be resource poor (except for food) so they might work towards a cultural or vision victory.

Of course this brings up the point that if you have shallow seas in places, you might be able to dive into cities that are 'intact' if only underwater for stuff. Probably more work than needed, but it might work with swamps & marshes that cover cities farther up the Mississippi for example.

 

[Deon]

I haven't tried the SMAC mod yet but I'm pretty sire that they should have a working code for growing fungi.

 

[davidlallen]

Not to bring up FfF/FF again, but they do have a mechanic that might work here. Depending on the time frame of the turns, you could have certain bad terrain such as polluted lands (similar to tundra or desert) and ocean bloom zones that start the game that way and then 'upgrade' over time.

These are all good ideas. The obstacle is that there does not appear to be any way to have different river graphics in different places.

 

[arkham4269]

These are all good ideas. The obstacle is that there does not appear to be any way to have different river graphics in different places.

Yes, I could see how that would be an issue. I've noticed that your mod is very "anti-navy" in that the scale doesn't work to well with deep water ships. So rivers become very important (hence my thinking that the RoM building "river port" would be nice). It's too bad that Civ IV can't seem do do what Civ III could (or was it Civ II?) where they had a way to make these large rivers so that units could navigate them. Thus you could have riverboats and gunboats as well.

I firmly believe that the size of the map should be equivalent to only 4-5 states (such as my neck of the woods of Northern California, Oregon, Washington, Idaho and a bit of Canada). In most cases that would preclude lots of ocean. Thus rivers would become (as they should) really important for trade and the like.

 

[davidlallen]

It's too bad that Civ IV can't seem do do what Civ III could (or was it Civ II?) where they had a way to make these large rivers so that units could navigate them. Thus you could have riverboats and gunboats as well.

I should probably add a motorboat tech+unit, for better food production on the coast and enabling river based trade. In a few mods, I have seen them build the map with rivers that are one plot wide. This enables units to travel on them.

 

[arkham4269]

I should probably add a motorboat tech+unit, for better food production on the coast and enabling river based trade. In a few mods, I have seen them build the map with rivers that are one plot wide. This enables units to travel on them.

Did I miss your reply regarding the use of the FfF code where units upgrade from bronze weapons to iron to mithril? I ask since I think this would be a good way to have units automatically get better with time as resources permit. As many people have mentioned in the crossbow vs guns thread, while (cross)bows are easy early on, firearm technology is 600 years old so as long as you can make gunpowder, you can start cranking out guns. Sure they might be flintlocks at first, but they are guns.

So it seems to me that instead of having lots of units represent the same thing with different weapons, you can have a Guardian that starts out with bows, upgrades to early firearms, then later types of firearms. That way you can have more units available for different things like oil vs steam units and airships vs airplanes and the like.

I would think that this mod would also do well to have more units that mostly carry other units. Infantry is cheap and he who shows up with the most troops at the crisis point usually wins so while it might be nice to have your 'technicals' it might be better tactically to use them as APC's where their main role is to carry infantry quicker than they can march. In RoM, I've found when I have superior infantry, having a BTR-80 with two infantry which can dismount and attack on the same turn can be really devastating when I can use the BTR's mobility to penetrate quicker into my enemies lands than if they marched square by square.

 

[davidlallen]

Weapon types as promotions has been discussed a few times recently, such as in this post. I think it works well for the ute. Given a progression of units such as survivor, guardian, machine gunner, AT infantry and SAM infantry, is there an advantage to treating the weapons as promotions instead of different unit types?

Regarding troop transport, how well does the AI use it in ROM or other mods? From what I have read around the forum, the AI does not use land transport effectively. Of course it is always possible to study the AI well enough and then improve it; but it sounds like that part would be hard.

 

[arkham4269]

Weapon types as promotions has been discussed a few times recently, such as in this post. I think it works well for the ute. Given a progression of units such as survivor, guardian, machine gunner, AT infantry and SAM infantry, is there an advantage to treating the weapons as promotions instead of different unit types?

First off, I think you should have a AAA unit, preferably an artillery unit. The German 88mm was originally designed as a AAA weapon. As an ex-military intel type of many a year, I can tell you that there is a lot more to SAM technology than the missiles. You need the training, the radar and the like. Remember the first computers were designed to help AAA artillery calculate shooting at planes more quickly. Plus, with the dearth of planes as yet in your mod, I find it weird to have SAM units prior to any planes. From a infantry standpoint, the MG unit is plenty fine as a defender as is the AT unit against vehicles.

In regard to promotion versus a different unit, I don't know if there is a cap on units. It seems some mods have lots of units while some have few, but the ones that have lots of units (like FfH/FF) also seem to lose units. So if there is a cap on the number of units you could have, I figure this would at least free up some slots. This also because I think it came up before that you might want to take up the idea of 'magical items' that FF uses that are one shot things but are actually units with those special properties. So that one-shot medical supplies that a unit can carry around and heal themselves with is still a 'unit' filling a slot.

Regarding troop transport, how well does the AI use it in ROM or other mods? From what I have read around the forum, the AI does not use land transport effectively. Of course it is always possible to study the AI well enough and then improve it; but it sounds like that part would be hard.

This is a very good question. Since my system likes to crash in late games, it's hard for me to tell. That and in many of my RoM games, I'm way ahead of the AI in tech. My first comment would be "no, it's not" but I don't see why since the code would (I would think) be similar to ships.

But then again, I feel the AI in Civ IV got very stupid in regard to navies compared to Civ III. The Civ III AI was evil, it'd build fleets and use them as such, put ships along likely shipping routes and could build large fleets of transports and do some nasty marine invasions. So far, I've noticed that the Civ IV AI is ******** when it comes to ships. First off, the AI seems to like to build navy ships even when they shouldn't, like when I'm attacking them overland. While they pump out naval vessels (like that damned Xebec!) in massive numbers (and I think the AI must build all the naval buildings since their ships ALWAYS have the maximum combat power possible) the AI never
often will not do more than pair up 2 ships and go attacking. I've attacked many a city to find 4-6 naval ships still in port and even if I don't take the city the first turn, the AI won't move them! Plus the AI doesn't really seem to know what to do with transports. Rarely do I ever see more than one transport with troops at a time. I've commented on this in other forums but no one really has commented on it.

 

[davidlallen]

First off, I think you should have a AAA unit, preferably an artillery unit. The German 88mm was originally designed as a AAA weapon. As an ex-military intel type of many a year, I can tell you that there is a lot more to SAM technology than the missiles. You need the training, the radar and the like. Remember the first computers were designed to help AAA artillery calculate shooting at planes more quickly. Plus, with the dearth of planes as yet in your mod, I find it weird to have SAM units prior to any planes.

I guess there is no way to know this from the outside, but the main role for the SAM infantry is to act as a gunship counter. I figured it was armed with stingers, or other man-portable anti-helicopter missiles. That is the sort of thing you might find in a munitions dump, and it does not need much training or other equipment besides breaking any launch encryption it may have. Without this unit, gunships could dominate the game.

One possible future extension is to add both fighter/bomber planes and AAA.

In regard to promotion versus a different unit, I don't know if there is a cap on units. It seems some mods have lots of units while some have few, but the ones that have lots of units (like FfH/FF) also seem to lose units. So if there is a cap on the number of units you could have, I figure this would at least free up some slots.

There isn't any cap on the number of unit types, as far as I know. It feels like some of the WWII mods have hundreds of unit types.

But then again, I feel the AI in Civ IV got very stupid in regard to navies compared to Civ III. [...] Plus the AI doesn't really seem to know what to do with transports. Rarely do I ever see more than one transport with troops at a time. I've commented on this in other forums but no one really has commented on it.

I guess the AI would use land transport as stupidly as it uses naval transport, then. When you've pointed this out on other forums and there was no response, I guess the only possible response is, "You're right, it's stupid". Rewriting the AI on that fundamental a level seems impossible unless the Firaxis devs do it.

 

[arkham4269]

That is the sort of thing you might find in a munitions dump, and it does not need much training or other equipment besides breaking any launch encryption it may have. Without this unit, gunships could dominate the game.

Sorry, but that isn't true. SAMs take a lot of training. However, like you say, if you are using them to merely shoot at helicopters, then it would be easier. The problem is with SAMs is that it's very hard to train for them since you pretty much have to use the weapon in training which sort of defeats the purpose. Plus, if most of the helicopters are more of the "Road Warrior" gyrocopters, many SAMs would have trouble locking on due to the close range and lack of large, jet-induced heat signature. Plus, SAMs aren't very common these days. The Army is sort of moving away from those units since the threat really isn't there and we need the troops for other missions and we haven't had US troops attacked by enemy air since Korea.

What I think you are thinking of is throw-away anti-tank weapons such as the AT-4 which have instructions right on the weapon.

However, my view is that if you have enough helicopters in the game to be a problem, it implies a level of technology that would make relying on found weapons moot.

That being said, let me just point out something that often times civilians miss: developing a technology is very different from 'weaponizing' it. For example, building the little helicopter you see in "The Road Warrior" probably isn't hard at all. However, besides manually dropping bombs, turning it into something resembling a gunship is another matter entirely. So yes, you could have lots of ultra-lights and small gyro-copters, but they really wouldn't be affective combat units. I mean a competent shop mechanic can make a AK-47 by hand (and they do in Pakistan, I got to see one while I was deployed to Afghanistan) but it's another thing entirely to develop a gun system like for a WW II fighter. Hell, I'm betting that unless you happened to find a very technical book, it might take some time to develop the arresting gear they used on WW I fighters.

I guess the AI would use land transport as stupidly as it uses naval transport, then. When you've pointed this out on other forums and there was no response, I guess the only possible response is, "You're right, it's stupid". Rewriting the AI on that fundamental a level seems impossible unless the Firaxis devs do it.

The whole AI thing was one of the only disappointments I had with Civ IV. It reminds me of the issue with word processor spell/grammer checkers which actually seem to be getting worse with every new iteration.

BTW, in any of your research for this game come up with anything on the chemical side of things? I ask this since I wonder how easy/hard it would be if things suddenly fell about to make gunpowder. I mean, how hard would it get be to get sulpher? Or is there a 'easy' chemical trick that most people who took a college chemistry class would know that could make it? I ask because if it would be hard to synthesize, then perhaps you need to have sulphur as resource which I think would be really important. Sure at first you can cannibalize stuff, but after a decade, you'd think you'd have stripped everything pretty clean and any civ would be desperate for gunpowder.

 

[davidlallen]

Plus, if most of the helicopters are more of the "Road Warrior" gyrocopters, many SAMs would have trouble locking on due to the close range and lack of large, jet-induced heat signature. Plus, SAMs aren't very common these days. [...] What I think you are thinking of is throw-away anti-tank weapons such as the AT-4 which have instructions right on the weapon.

The gunships in Fury Road are repaired pre-apocalypse ones, so they have a heat signature. Clearly you know more about these weapons than I do, but aren't simple RPGs a big threat to helicopters (see "Black Hawk Down")? I would think the rest of the world would want this type of weapon to defend against US helicopters.

BTW, in any of your research for this game come up with anything on the chemical side of things? I ask this since I wonder how easy/hard it would be if things suddenly fell about to make gunpowder. I mean, how hard would it get be to get sulpher?

Research? I don't need no steenkin' research I haven't investigated the reality of post-apocalyptic life, I am just trying to make a fun game. Sorry, I can't help on that question.

 

[Chuggi]

It kind of ruins the atmosphere when you start asking questions like "but where did they get their gunpowder from?"

 

[arkham4269]

It kind of ruins the atmosphere when you start asking questions like "but where did they get their gunpowder from?"

Not at all. Obviously the point of a game is for it to be enjoyable and fun to play. But what makes it fun for you may not make it fun for me. I enjoy Civ for a lot of it's aspects of "what if?" and I like it better when it's more realistic. I don't like it when I jump from Frigates right to Battleships.

Besides, by taking a look at how you make gunpowder might give you more avenues of game play.

For example, I did some Open Source research on this matter (it's one of the things I did in the military) and I found that sulfur, the main ingredient that is hardest to come by can be gotten a few ways. There are places where it is mined (like in Alberta in Canada for example) so that matches having sulfur as a resource like copper or iron. However, you can leeched out of natural or refined gas.

So at some point where your new post-apocalyptic is up to using natural or refined gas, all it might take is 1 tech and then a building and then you're back in the gunpowder business. In some respect, I believe this is why sulfur as a need for gunpowder units just goes away in games like RoM: at a certain tech level, there is plenty of sulfur available chemically that you don't have to rely on mined sulfur.

Plus, it's all about playing style. As a military analyst and a combat vet, I can tell you ammo evaporates. You use it up way faster than most people think. So in all reality "Road Warriors" just wouldn't be feasible since they'd just blow through their ammo to quickly. But for the sake of the game, you can use the that fact as a route to victory. Do you research mobility techs, have lots of scouts and really push to go for an early "Blitz" victory by betting that you'll be able to find, scavenge enough old tech and ammo and be able to over-run my Civ who has been trying to rebuild sort of from scratch? Sure the old tech is great, but if it's all you have, if my Civ can hold out long enough, then your Civ is screwed. You empty .50cal's won't do you much good in the face of my companies of well drilled flintlock using infantry being driven into your territory by old cars now being run on steam.

Again, just saying, "It's only a game!" closes off avenues where a little research might find ways to tweak things that make the came more balanced and definitely more appealing to more styles of play. I don't want to be the "Road Warriors"; I want to be the guys you see running of with the 'precious juice' to start fresh. With a little work, both styles of play can be accommodated and the mod is better for it.

 

[arkham4269]

but aren't simple RPGs a big threat to helicopters (see "Black Hawk Down")? I would think the rest of the world would want this type of weapon to defend against US helicopters.

Yes, properly used, they can be very effective. However, unless you are playing in a old Soviet bloc country or some place like the Balkans, Iraq or Afghanistan, they aren't very common. However, for the sake of the game, I realize that the world has to have been pumped up by the NRA so there is ammo and weapons everywhere.

Although as I said before, in many respects, it's not the weapons. Many places have National Guard armories that have plenty of weapons, but in the US, about the only places you going to find much ammo for these weapons is at major military bases or at very select ammo dumps. Even today, ammo isn't something that is safe just to keep lying around.

That's why I've always thought the way to go, in a post-apocalyptic environment is to do an end-around and do things like they did in the Road Warrior where a lot of their weapons were dart throwers using compressed air. Hell of a lot easier to created compressed air (just need an air compressor found at any hardware store) and a little work and you have a repeating weapon that you can easily fabricate ammo for.

Plus, I've always felt that the map should have little Warlord 'kingdom's' that are just one city, but a tough one because they have hoarded old tech. They are a menace close to their city, but since the Warlord isn't into much more than living well, they never grow and eventually any major Civ will take them out later in the game.

 

[Chuggi]

But this is a post apocalyptic mod?! It's already beyond reason.

I love all the realistic stuff in the proper game, but here, it doesn't worry me.

 

[arkham4269]

But this is a post apocalyptic mod?! It's already beyond reason.

I love all the realistic stuff in the proper game, but here, it doesn't worry me.

Well the 'problem' is it seems some people just want to play "The Road Warrior" and run around being post-apocalyptic Mongols...and that is perfectly fine.

However, for those of us who really like alternate history fiction, or like Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri for that matter, this mod can be a way of having mostly a 'start from scratch' game but instead of 4000 BC, we have a different set of start up rules. One of the whole points of Civ that a lot of people go for is the chance to change how things go. After the End of Things, this is another chance 'to do it right'...or wrong if that's what you're into. There are plenty of books and films of this motif and many of us want to simulate that.

If that's not really the point of this mod, I'll cheerfully (well maybe not 'cheerfully') shut up and quit trying to muck up the mod. But not trying to be rude or put words into anyone's mouth, but if the purpose is just to run around blowing . .. .. .. . up, why play Civ? There are plenty of games out of the Command & Conquer genre where you build things only as a means to create and army to destroy your enemy. Personally, I'd rather build to create and then to defend. But I'm just an old guy who went to a hippy school at a young age so I'm probably not in anyway the usual player of this mod.

But hey, you did the Cultural Diversity mod, I would think you'd be more tolerant of people wanting a different path to victory. >=]~

 

[Chuggi]

I'm tolerant. It's just nice to take a break from all that and go post-apocalyptic. I think the art in this mod represents the nature fairly well. I mean if it was aiming for realism, there wouldn't be giant spiders for a start.

Although you sound like you could write a good civlopedia for this mod, and I admit it would be more interesting if it could be detailed on how it's supposed to make sense. Interested?