New Founding Cities Mechanic [IMPLEMENTED]

[ConjurerDragon]

I like the general idea of settler profession, but it caused me a bit of a problem.When playing older mods usually I liked to start on West coast via adding unit in World Builder.Now I can't do it because there is no WB option to change profession.
Any idea how to solve it?

- you can use the cheat code $ to give you money and simply buy a fully equipped additional settler in Europe
- you can establish a first city with your first settler on the ship and turn any unit there into a settler once you have the needed equipment. Hover over e.g. wood to see the amount you need.

 

[Hibernian]

I like the general idea of settler profession, but it caused me a bit of a problem.When playing older mods usually I liked to start on West coast via adding unit in World Builder.Now I can't do it because there is no WB option to change profession.
Any idea how to solve it?

Can you not add a settlement via the world builder ?

 

[Schmiddie]

You can add a settlement, but you can currently not ad a founding unit with the WB. I have currently no idea how to change that.

 

[Nightinggale]

You can add a settlement, but you can currently not ad a founding unit with the WB. I have currently no idea how to change that.

Changing profession of a unit... never considered that in WB. I'm not sure it's possible, but I think it can be added if it's not already possible. Assigning professions, or at least outdoor professions would be a good addition to WB in general.

 

[Schmiddie]

The thing is that when a settler is placed by WB he is not placed with the right profession which can found a city since the profession for that has been changed. In previous versions each profession was able to found a city - now it is only a profession which no unit has when placed by WB. Therefore you need to place a settlement first where you can change the profession so that the unit is able to found a city.

 

[raystuttgart]

Yes, but it extremely easily to do the following:

1. Create a Specialist Unit for the Settler that has Default Profession Settler and thus it can be placed by Worldbuilder like that
2. Give the Specialist Unit for the Settler a tiny advantage for starting Cities (e.g. +25% Food)
3. Allow the Specialist Unit for the Settler to use learning by doing to become a really good Specialist
4. Make sure the Specialist Unit for the Settler can be acquired by Immigration and also bought in Europe
5. Make sure it can not be trained in schools
6. Make sure that the Specialist Unit for the Settler is not available for Natives / Wild Animals

Additionally I would do the following:
(Requires adjusting the Settler code a bit - but effort is really low.)

Ensuring that the spawning of a Settler in Europe uses the new Unit.
Thus I would also simplify the code for spawning a Settler in Europe a bit.
(The current code needs to search for the Profession that can found a city, which is not necessary with a DefaultProfession)

Comments:

The base "Specialist Unit for Settler" (if it has no Profession) should maybe have a tiny graphical difference to the "Free Colonist".
(Maybe holding something like a small plant in his hand.)

This applies for :

• Button (Colopedia / Worldbuilder)
  
• 2D Unit Graphics (City Screen, Europe Screen)
  
• 3D Unit Graphics (Map)

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Buying the "Specialist Unit in Europe" should be a bit more expensive that buying a "Free Colonist" and equipping it.
(Because it also has a tiny advantage of starting a City.)

The Immigration chances of this "Specialist Unit in Europe" should be similar to other experts with equipment (like e.g. Pioneers or Scouts).

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Voila, problem solved:

We can now place a Unit on the Map that can directly found cities.

• It makes a little bit sense for gameplay (when starting a colony)
  
• It is still not overpowered
  
• "Settler" can directly be bought in buy menu (saves time for equipping)
• It can still become a better expert later (by LbD)
• It can not be educated in schools
• Natives and Wild Animals can not get it

And it is almost all XML and a few new graphics - just tiny changes to the "Free Colonist" needed.
No complicated programming at all.

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@Schmiddie:

Would you be willing to create this base "Specialist Unit for Settler" ?
(graphics are for Profession "None")

As I said, it could look 90% like the "Free Colonist".
Of course we would like always need:

• Button for Colopedia and Worldbuilder
  
• 2D Unit graphic for Europe Screen and City Screen
• 3D Unit graphic for Map

Once I get the graphics, I can fully build and test this within about 1h of effort.

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Changing profession of a unit... never considered that in WB. I'm not sure it's possible, but I think it can be added if it's not already possible. Assigning professions, or at least outdoor professions would be a good addition to WB in general.

It would currently only really be interesting for "Map Scenario Makers".
(e.g. if you want to put a Slave in a certain Profession on the Map - combinations that only make sense if you want to "tell a story")

But as I explained so often, these scenarios are incredibly hard to maintain if the Units / Professions / Terrains / Terrain Features ... (which happened really a lot of the course of TAC / RaR / WTP).
Basically every time something like that happened we had to throw such scenarios away again.

For normal gameplay it is not really useful, since you can place - once my change above is implemented - every single Profession in WTP, since they all have experts.
(Never ever had a usecase in normal gameplay to place strange combinations of Units and Professions other than the Expert with his Default Profession.)

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@Nightinggale:
If you are interested in coding that addition in Worldbuilder, go ahead.
Although I really think it is not needed it would also not hurt to have it.

Remarks:

Getting into the Worldbuilder interface and logic is more difficult than you might expect.
(I once tried but could not figure out how to do it without massive effort. But I am also no big fan of coding complex logic in Python.)

However I know that it has been done already. (I think a lot of it was done in Python UI.)
The experienced Civ4BTS modders can surely hint you in the right direction.

 

[Nightinggale]

The issue isn't world builder, but rather CvUnit::canHaveProfession. Starting with next release you can change into settler anywhere and ignore yield requirements. Obviously only when using world builder. Normal gameplay will still require yields and being in a colony.

This bug appears to have been present since whaling boats were introduced in TAC. I guess the change profession isn't used much in WB or people would have noticed long ago.

 

[raystuttgart]

Obviously only when using world builder.

I just point that out again for community to avoid panic and confusion if somebody did not read all the text.

This bug appears to have been present since whaling boats were introduced in TAC.

I am ashamed that I had accidently damaged this existing Worldbuilder feature "Change Profession" when implementing Whaling Boats without even knowing it existed until today.

Great job by the way.

 

[raystuttgart]

This however still leaves the question if we should implement this anyways or not.
Specialist Unit for the Settler (see description above)

Again to understand, it is basically just a "Free Colonist" with a little Food Produciton Bonus that allows 1 more worker in an early City.
(Later it will most likely turn into an Expert by LbD like an "Expert Farmer".)

We could call it "Trained Settler" to say, it is a colonist trained for founding a City. (Or whatever sounds or fits best in English.)
In German: "Ausgebildeter Siedlungsgründer"

The main differences then to now:

• Settlers (Expert in the Profession) can be placed by Worldbuilder
• Settlers (Expert in the Profession) could immigrate (like e.g. a Pioneer)
• Settlers (Expert in the Profession) could directly be bought (like e.g. a Pioneer) in Europe (saves a little time to equip in Europe)

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It is basically mainly for convenience.
(But effort to create it is also pretty low and risk is basically 0.)

 

[Ramstormp]

This however still leaves the question if we should implement this anyways or not.
Specialist Unit for the Settler (see description above)

Again to understand, it is basically just a "Free Colonist" with a little Food Produciton Bonus that allows 1 more worker in an early City.
(Later it will most likely turn into an Expert by LbD like an "Expert Farmer".)

We could call it "Trained Settler" to say, it is a colonist trained for founding a City. (Or whatever sounds or fits best in English.)
In German: "Ausgebildeter Siedlungsgründer"

The main differences then to now:

• Settlers (Expert in the Profession) can be placed by Worldbuilder
• Settlers (Expert in the Profession) could immigrate (like e.g. a Pioneer)
• Settlers (Expert in the Profession) could directly be bought (like e.g. a Pioneer) in Europe (saves a little time to equip in Europe)

----

It is basically mainly for convenience.
(But effort to create it is also pretty low and risk is basically 0.)

I like it, and think the expert settler should bring along a little bit of lumber as well, so he can get started on buildings immediately.

 

[darklurkers]

hi this is very interesting idea to implement settler profession. Because i havent played much at all with last version may i ask how it has afffected the players and ai city-building rate early-game?
Also do i understand right you are thinking of implementing 2-tier settler system like a "regular settler" and proffessional settler" so what would be their differences...?
Also arent the resource requirements for settler unit too much if they are too expensive to build early game??

 

[raystuttgart]

@darklurkers
"Settler Profession" is not an idea anymore.
It is already part of the mod and published since more than half a year.
(It was published with "Challenge" already.)

We are talking here about changing a small detail:
Adding an Expert because currently "Settlers" can not be placed by Worldbuilder.
(You an only directly place Cities.)

-----

Simply test it yourself.
(Feedback to the feature was very very good.)

 

[darklurkers]

these changes dont seem so minor for gameplay consequence lol
anyway if need special units for prof settler give them some good bonus vs "regular settler" or maybe make some units like "early hardy settler from europe" who can build cities quicker and has some good bonus like make the regular settler require less resourcers maybe only tool and make "hardier settler" require more resources but he give better bonuses to city build...

 

[raystuttgart]

these changes dont seem so minor for gameplay consequence

No, they are not minor, they are major just as planned.
But it was suggested, voted for and implemented like that.

Simply play it a bit to understand how it works.
(There is little point in discussing a feature you have not tried yet.)

Generally there is really not much to discuss anymore, since the feature is already fully implemented and published since half a year.
(Discussing about changing the game concept of a feature that is that old and works really fine is much too late.)

----

The only thing that might be added is the Expert.
(see here - basically the last posts.)

Otherwise it works perfectly as designed.
(And as I said, feedback was really really good.)

 

[Mr. ZorG]

I like it, and think the expert settler should bring along a little bit of lumber as well, so he can get started on buildings immediately.

this is an interesting idea to implement this

Settlers (Expert in the Profession) could directly be bought (like e.g. a Pioneer) in Europe (saves a little time to equip in Europe)

 

[Schmiddie]

"Ausgebildeter Siedlungsgründer" I like "Erfahrener Siedler" - I know it might confuse new player because we have the "settler" as a standard unit. Nevertheless "Ausgebildeter Siedlungsgründer" sounds unwieldy.

Hm, let me think about that. Do we really need such unit? It would just be another specialist - just to be able to set a settler on the map by using the WB?

However, I must admit that it would fit with the general profession system to have specialists for all professions.

"(Later it will most likely turn into an Expert by LbD like an "Expert Farmer".)" Hm, is that true? Wouldn't you at first have to delete is speciality?

 

[Nightinggale]

"(Later it will most likely turn into an Expert by LbD like an "Expert Farmer".)" Hm, is that true? Wouldn't you at first have to delete is speciality?

Yes or no. It depends on xml settings and it can be made either way.

 

[raystuttgart]

Hm, is that true?

Yes, it is true.

Wouldn't you at first have to delete is speciality?

No, you would not.

Even as an Expert in this case it will use "Learning by Doing".
Simply becaus that is the way I will configure it - without needing to touch only line of code.

Remark:
Just because some thing are true for current Specialist configuration, does not mean that we could not simply set it differently in XML for another Use Case.
(There are lots of possibilities in XML that players never imagined to use simply because they do not know they exist.)

It depends on xml settings and it can be made either way.

Exactly.

 

[raystuttgart]

I like "Erfahrener Siedler"

Perfectly fine for me as well.

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Do we really need such unit?

Just if you want to have this.

• Settlers (Expert in the Profession) can be placed by Worldbuilder
• Settlers (Expert in the Profession) could immigrate (like e.g. a Pioneer)
• Settlers (Expert in the Profession) could directly be bought (like e.g. a Pioneer) in Europe (saves a little time to equip in Europe)

---

This here is just needed to round of the concept of to give the Unit at least a little gameplay purpose.
(And the rest of the concept suggested above is to avoid stupid side effects.)

Give the Specialist Unit for the Settler a tiny advantage for starting Cities (e.g. +25% Food)

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Not really necessary for me from gameplay perspective to have a Specialist for each Profession.

But for the future it might at some point be useful if we have it.
It definitely does not hurt as long as we find some gameplay reason and do not damage immersion.

However, I must admit that it would fit with the general profession system to have specialists for all professions.

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@Schmiddie

Just take the time to think about it and if you are interested to create the graphics.
There is no need to hurry and I can personally live with or without it.

I am just a bit tired of hearing complaints that "Settlers" can not be placed by Worldbuilder.
The suggestion above is the simplest and easiest solution to this and the absolute max I am still willing to invest in this feature.

 

[schueler]

I would suggest "pioneering settler" or "settler-pioneer" as a term. I've found it being used in a few history books using the googlefu.

"Ausgebildeter Siedlungsgründer" is a very sperrig word.