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New Founding Cities Mechanic [IMPLEMENTED]

Discussion in 'Civ4Col - We The People' started by raystuttgart, Dec 30, 2019.

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Should new "founding cities mechanic" be implemented?

  1. Yes, it adds the need of strategical decisions and more realism.

    79.3%
  2. No, it is just tedious and difficult to understand for new players.

    20.7%
  1. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    There is no Unit "Settler" in the current concept.
    It would be just a Profession "Settler" - like Profession "Pioneer" - that however needs more equipment.
     
  2. Tugboatspotter

    Tugboatspotter Warlord

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    That is what I meant sorry,

    I prefer the pioneer fulfilling that role. More elegant ;p
     
  3. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    Sorry, I thought you had misread the post. :)
    And yes using the Profession "Pioneer" could technically be done.

    However it makes implementation a bit more difficult to teach AI when to build Roads/Improvements and when to found cities.
    Also it would be a pitty if AI should choose the Specialist Pioneer for founding cities. (There will be no Specialist for Profession Settler.)

    It is easier (at least for me it would be) if there are 2 distinct Professions that each have a very clear purpose for AI (meaning 2 distinct Unit AIs).
    But since AI coding probably done most likely done by devolution, he should proably decide how I should do the main feature programming and XML configuration (incl. XML for Unit).
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2020
  4. devolution

    devolution Prince

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    Allowing the pioneer profession to found cities would introduce undesirable coupling between the worker (pioneer) and settler AI which would require quite a bit of effort to untangle. It would be completely doable and not too hard, but I like the idea of a separate profession better, which in principle could require the same amount of equipment as a pioneer. The Colonization AI already distinguishes between colonists and settlers so we could just reuse the existing logic for that.

    And, Like ray pointed out, it would be a bit of a waste to let expert pioneers settle a city when they would be better off improving plots.
     
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  5. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    Exactly. :thumbsup:
    Or just a tiny bit Food or Wood as well to make it a tiny bit more challenging. :)
    (I can of course still live with it though if community and team don't want that.)

    You are completely right, that is not the problem. :thumbsup:

    But we need to teach AI when it should buy or assemble the equipment and really equip the Profession Settler when it needs it.
    Otherwise we break the balance and AI would not settle enough cities or settle too many.
     
  6. Commander Bello

    Commander Bello Say No 2 Net Validations

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    That is not necessarily true, I think.
    Even the pioneer can only found a city in a certain distance to another city. In that distance though he should only be able to create a road, because that plot cannot be anymore in the workable area of a neighbouring city.
    For building the road he will need like 3 turns (and 20 gold), while by founding the city currently he would get that road for free.
    But if he were building a road, chances are good that there is already a road leading to the currently occupied plot. On that road a replacement unit could come in so that the pioneer then could be reassigned UNITAI_WORKER (from the top of my head) and continue buillding the rest of the road or now chop or build an improvement. That actually would make sense if the nearest city is close enough and could send a colonist over to the newly founded city.

    Edit:
    On second thought: that scenario however would only make sense outside of the cultural borders as otherwise he indeed should stay being a pioneer and could start working already on an improvement while the second unit is on the march.
     
  7. rah

    rah Deity Supporter

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    I'd have no problem with a rule that you have to have a road built to a new site before you could settle (non coastal anyway)
    That would slow down settlement spam.
     
  8. Tugboatspotter

    Tugboatspotter Warlord

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    The settler provided that dual role in civ 2 without a problem so it is clearly doable, however, I understand the logic of taking advantage of the profession system.

    On the other hand, the term 'pioneer' is synonymous with settler. I don't think it would make sense to have a pioneer "a person who is among the first to explore or settle a new country or area " who doesn't settle, and a settler who does.

    Edit: I suggest the pioneer profession is renamed 'worker' and the new settler profession becomes 'pioneer'. I haven't considered how this might affect the current units.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2020
  9. ConjurerDragon

    ConjurerDragon Prince Supporter

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    But that would be completely ahistorical. Settlements were not only built on the coast without an inland road, but along major rivers too.
    Still during the Revolutionary War there had been a lot of Wilderness between US cities, so that in some campaigns the british soldiers needed to build roads (instead of some existing footpaths) through dense forest for their advances.

    Requiring a road to be built from the first coastal settlement to be able to settle an inland location would only make sense once major rivers are navigable by shallow ships and allow settling along them.
    e.g. Louisiana and Canada, as long as they were still both french, tried to connect by exploring and building forts along the major rivers (St. Laurenz from north to the Great Lakes and Missisipi from south and up the Ohio River to cut off the british colonies at the coast from the inland
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frenc...ericas#/media/File:Nouvelle-France_map-en.svg

    If the cause is to slow down early colonization, would it perhaps be possible that early settlements (e.g. until 1550) are founded without a road and only later settlements do get one for free on their city square?
     
  10. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    You are absolutely correct. :thumbsup:
    Settlements were build everywhere where Settlers thought it would make sense.
     
  11. cammcken

    cammcken Warlord

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    I'm pretty new here. It's been referenced but I don't think any post in this thread actually explains why city-spamming is overpowered (besides the free roads exploit). Maybe addressing each exploit individually would be easier than a new mechanic. Are too many early settlements the problem, or are the issues caused by easy settling combined with abandoning?

    Although I'm not that great of a player, I sort of like how spamming settlements and spreading out "wide" is an available option for early-game strategy. I thought the changes made in TAC (settlements no longer start with Town Halls and first tier production buildings) effectively made a new settlement nearly worthless: they start with no more than a Base Camp and a Lumberjack's House.

    Also in my experience with TAC, the counterbalance for building too many settlements was the player's ability to defend them, because if they aren't defended well the natives will attack. Obviously WtP changes this. I still haven't figured out how native relations work, but it's a lot less punishing.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2020
  12. Lib.Spi't

    Lib.Spi't Overlord of the Wasteland

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    The DoANE method for dealing with this is 'builder packs' for ships and then a land based settler cart that comes in a later era. The initial ship starts with a builder back, so you can found a coastal colony next to your ship, you can then reequip your ships with builder packs to repeat the process (sometimes the king even gives you them) So founding coastal cities is 'easier' than landlocked sites and you cannot build land colonies at the start.

    I was also going to suggest Glaks idea of using the pioneer as the settler, this would solve most of the starting issues and complexities of another unit. The player is introduced to the idea as they have one on the starter ship, they can be made at the dock to bring in new settlements that way, and probably some other points too.

    In M:C there were actually professions for founding different city types (different topic) but also settler professions that carried with them food and wood so that you can get your new city a 'starter pack' to help you found in an inhospitable location, or get some starter buildings up in a place with minimal wood, etc.

    Another possibility could be that colonists found colonies with no squares and you have to bring in X yields to build the initial 'colony building' that gives you the 8 squares and such.
     
  13. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    This feature concept seems to be accepted. :)
    Poll is quite positive and feedback from team is as well.

    It is highly likely to be implemented in next feature Release 2.8.
     
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  14. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    Ok, I am making first steps with this.

    Basic configuration is done.

    • Art Setup
    • Profession setup / first balancing
    • first basic text entries
    • Unit AI linking
    • linking Profession Arts to Units
    • forbiding some Units (like e.g. Slaves) to use it
    • linking Profession to Civs
    • forbiding Natives to use it
    • ...
    So generally the Profession works now and AI can use it (once it has it) to found cities.
    (It is able to found cities.)

    What I have not yet done is:
    • taking away the possibility to found Cities from other Professions (which is however really easy)
    • changing starting Unit of all Colonial Nations so they have one Unit in "Profession Setter" to start with
    • making sure that AI actually equips enough of that Profession (or generally founds enough cities)
    • making sure that AI does not waste valuable Experts (like Hardened Pioneers) for that Profession
    • finetuning of balancing
    • correcting all Colopedia entries about "Founding Settlements"
    • ...
    Summary:

    The feature is already working for Human Player.
    The only real problem remaining is to teach this to AI.
    But first results / investigations look good. :)
    It should be possible to teach AI to found Cities this new way and do it well enough.
    (with a little help of "children's rules" / "easier AI rules")

    -----------

    Again, this is not a new Unit.
    (There is also no Expert Unit for this.)

    This is just a Profession that needs equipment.
    (Some Units like African Slaves, Native Slaves and Criminals criminals are not allowed to use it.)

    The equipment needed for this Profession is consumed when founding a settlement.
    (Thus avoiding an exploit to use the same equipment over and over again.)

    In the end this Profession will become the only Profession left that can found new settlements.



     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Aug 1, 2020
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  15. lethiel

    lethiel Streaming Col at https://www.twitch.tv/lethiel01

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    Balance comment. The settler feature dramatically decreases the value of finding a free colonist/ indentured servant in a goody box far away from your colonies (if settler units are not added to those shipwrecks/burial grounds. You would have to bring them all the way back to your settlements.
    It looks good though. :)
     
  16. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    By the way:
    You could simply sail to Europe and then back to the colonies.
    That is often even faster if your ship is really far away.

    General Comments about this feature:

    I would not say that it "dramatically decreases the value of goody colonists" - since it is not about that case specifically.
    It is of coure a case that I am totally aware of and actually never liked because it makes expansion in the game too easy.

    Generally it affects all normal colonists that are not equiped in "Profession Settler".
    It does not matter where you got those normal colonist from - they simply first need the equipment to be able to found a new settlement.

    So true, you cannot simply use any goody colonist anymore to found a new colony. :thumbsup:
    That is actually exactly what I intend with this.

    Expansions / founding more settlements will become more costly and challenging - but also more immersive and realistic - by this "tiny change".
    This feature intends to remove the "I simply found settlements with everything everywhere" - or in other words "spamming cities without any real decision".

    So again:
    I am fully aware that this feature will heavily change gameplay by removing expansion without cost.
    I simply never liked that and considered it personally "an exploit" - although that is of course just personal taste.

    Edit:
    I purposely branched the "Master" of this mod and created a new branch "Challenge".
    This branch does not necessarily need to be integrated back to "Master" (WTP core mod) if team and community (beta testers) do not like the result.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2020
  17. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    The graphics were made by Schmiddie.
    Of course they look good. :)
     
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  18. Neko Keeshi

    Neko Keeshi Chieftain

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    10/10 Can't wait to play with settlers :D
     
  19. Nenos

    Nenos Chieftain

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    At first I was skeptical about this. But the concept looks good. Could you release a beta please
     
  20. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    There are still todos. ;)
    It is not even close to being finished yet.

    The biggest challenge is to teach AI to really use the profession appropriately.
    (It simply is not enough that the feature works for Human Player.)

    devolution and myself are currently discussing and working on this.
    (Until the weekend I do not have much time though.)
     

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