New Ideas for a "What if Rome Survived Mod"

[jobiwan7]

Hi! I've read lots of different ideas for this, and have had lots of ideas for such a Mod bouncing around inside my head for a while, so I decided to make a rough timeline of them. I was hoping Xen or Sword of Geddon might assist me with this, since they had both showed interest in Roman alternate history. Anyway, here it is.

324 A.D.—Constantine returns to Rome as its sole Emperor, and decides to rebuild it. He returns power and life to the city. The newly-rejuvenated Rome holds its own against the barbarians much better than it would have otherwise.

476 A.D.—Marcus Viducius Marcellinus, an influential Roman politician, realizes that Rome has become a mere shadow of its former self, and convinces Roman Legatus (General) Lucius Vergilius Victorinus, to aid him in his campaign to restore Rome. While Vergilius prevents a Goth invasion, and re-conquers much of the Empire’s territory, Vicucius introduces classical Roman culture into it. A Roman Renaissance occurs, and the young emperor Romulus Augustulus is defeated by General Vergilius and his new legions. Viducius reforms the government, giving more power to the Senate, and assisting in the writing of the Constitutionis. After Vergilius’s death c. 495, Viducius becomes Imperator.

510 A.D.-1203 A.D.—The Roman Empire expands over a vast area, shown below.

1203 A.D.—Barbarians and general unrest force the Roman government to negotiate with many of its outlying provinces. In the Council of Helvetia (in Rhaetia, modern-day Switzerland) Rome agrees to let some provinces go, setting up new countries for the different peoples. Later, a similar council is held in Alexandria for several eastern provinces.

1492 A.D.—Gaius Columbius Cristo, seeking a western route for trade with the east, asks the Imperator for ships and funding, which is quickly approved. Leaving from Hispania with many ships and men, he sets out for the east, but, of course, discovers the Americas. Many colonies are set up in Central and South America. The Romans form an alliance with the Inca tribe, who appear to be the most advanced, and have skill in road-building. Eventually many other Natives’ empires are conquered, and Rome is superior. Other European nations begin to colonize the new world.

c. 1776 A.D.—After the English colonies succeed in gaining their independence, Rome’s colonies in the Americas revolt. Not wanting another major war, Rome gives them their independence and forms alliances with them. Contact with native tribes, and long isolation from Rome causes new Latin-based languages to develop in the New World.

1790 A.D.—Seeing the rights given to the citizens of America in their “Bill of Rights,” the Roman people petition the Senate to amend the Constitutionis, but the tyrant Imperator vetoes every measure and refuses to accept Senate decisions. On August 27, the people succeed in ousting the tyrant, and transforming the Roman Empire into a more democratic society.

1914 A.D.—Fearing Austria-Hungary’s expansion into Roman-controlled Pannonia (Serbia), a radical assassinates Archduke Ferdinand. War breaks out.

1935 A.D.—A Revolution in Libya brings the Carthaginian Party to power, declaring that they must restore the ancient Empire’s glory by retaking the Mediterranean. They invade the Roman provinces in Africa. Rome declares war on Libya and its allies, which include Nazi Germany. War begins.

I realize that the 1800's aren't mentioned. I still need some ideas for that time period.

Please tell me what you think, or if you're interested. I can definitely not do this alone.

 

[drzoidberg]

Rome did survive, what do you think the Vatican is all about. Curiously enough, the building where the Roman senate gathered, the curia, is still around and used when the Pope has private meetings and when they elect a new one.

 

[jobiwan7]

By "Rome," I meant the Roman Empire.

and technically the Vatican isn't Rome.

 

[Roman Legion]

I have an idea but no one wants to make it, have roman units modernize like my idea for a roman cavalry they would coqour territory fast and easy. what do you think?

 

[jobiwan7]

Well I would expect Roman units to modernize as new technology is available, so I agree that a Roman Cavalry unit would be helpful.

 

[Rob (R8XFT)]

If the Roman Empire had survived, would we have had the "Dark Ages" at all, I wonder?
Perhaps the Vikings could be a quite formidable enemy - two power blocks in c1000AD?

 

[jobiwan7]

I'm assuming with Rome still in power, there wouldn't be a "Dark Age."

Yes, the Vikings would be quite powerful! They would be a big reason that Rome had to give up some of its western provinces.

 

[Plotinus]

Sounds good to me. "Gaius Columbius Cristo" - love it!

But when, precisely, is the scenario to be set within this story? WW2?

 

[jobiwan7]

I'm not sure what time period this would cover. Perhaps several different scenarios would work best. World War I or II would probably be the most interesting.

And I'm glad somebody noticed Columbius.

 

[Chukchi Husky]

Sounds interesting, but I don't know how I could help...

 

[jobiwan7]

I'm open to suggestions for new events in the timeline, civs, time period(s). Whatever you have to offer will be helpful.

 

[Chukchi Husky]

I have a question, how much of Europe did Rome give up?

 

[Texan General]

Interestingly enough, I have often considered a similar scenario but have never had the wherewithall to actually start and finish it. I did write up a basic history for my idea however and even created a map. I'll see if I can dig it up again and post it later today when I get off from work.

 

[jobiwan7]

Here's my idea of how large Rome would be in the Modern Era. Notice Israel in white (Rome gave it up in 1946).

 

[Elysium Dreams]

Cool ideas, but there's one gaping hole in the story: apparently, Asia doesn't exist outside of the Middle East! A more stable and prosperous Roman Europe would have almost certainly led to greater contact between the great empires of the West and the East, Rome and China. The reasons why the advanced civilization in China never had much direct contact with post-Roman Europe were twofold:

1. Much of the intervening territory was controlled by bandits and warlords, and

2. Europe was too poor and China too rich for large-scale trade to be feasible. Every few centuries when the Chinese Emperor would order an expedition out to the west to see what they could find, they'd come back without finding any worthwhile reason to explore closer relations.

A strong Roman Empire would eliminate both of these obstacles; Roman influence could tame the trade routes, and Roman prosperity could bring traders from China. Increased trade would bring increased prosperity on both sides, and one could see Chinese fads popping up in Constantinople and Rome, but how would the isolationist Chinese react to an influx of foreign goods and foreign culture? All in all you'd have much more of a "superpower" scenario in the Middle Ages than occured in real history, with some great potential for wars--India and Central Asia would become battlegrounds, with both sides trying to seize the strategic mountain passes and valuable local luxuries that would allow them to dominate trade across the entire continent.

And this, of course, is to say nothing of the impact that the sudden rise of the Mongols might have on the situation. Plenty of opportunity there!

Another question is what happens in the Middle East itself, specifically Islam. One could argue that if Roman influence spread into the Arabian Peninsula fast enough, Islam may never have been founded, although this is certainly not a very "PC" route to take--to do so would be attributing Mohammed's message to solely political and social factors, which is to basically invalidate the religious beliefs of Muslims. If Roman influence was just on the verge of enveloping Arabia, though, Islam might have had an even more violent and more sudden rise, taking on a fiercely nationalistic character when it appears--Arab society would be torn between its native traditions and the foreign culture of Rome, and a home-grown prophet to counter the encroaching Christianity of Rome would attract many zealous followers. The message might be less about spreading the true word of Allah and extending Islam over the earth, and more about preserving the unique culture of the Arabs. The whole tone might be reminescent of the Hebrews and their defiant nationalistic struggle against the Romans.

 

[jobiwan7]

Those are some very good ideas. I'd like to see more contact between Rome and China. It would make sense that they would meet, as the Empire extends to the Indus. This contact wouldn't last terribly long, though. Some eastern provinces are eventually lost (that's why Columbius looks for a new route, as an alternative to the Indian Ocean or over land).

As for the Islam situation, I'm guessing it would survive, and some of the Muslims might not like being ruled by non-Muslim Romans.

 

[Kal-el]

my first impression is that I like the idea, but it is going to take a lot of work in order to make it work.

1. Are you trying to make it fit in with the RL history of the world? If so, I don't think you can. The fall of Rome impacted the entire direction of western civilization.

2. Nazi Germany not being the agressor in WWII just doesn't sit well. If you are going to have a Nazi Germany, and have it arise for the same reasons it did in RL, then why not have the Lybians/Carthaginians claim their "Aryan" heritage, denounce Rome as genetically corrupted by centuries of breading with impure "barbarians" and align themselves with Hitler. Then, Nazi Germany attacks Poland and Carthage attacks Rome on the Southern Front to distract Rome from moving on Germania. Meanwhile, Germania quickly moves on Gaul and separatists in Hispania rebel against the Senate siding with Germania. I'm just throwing this out there without any real consideration, it just doesn't seem likely that the fascist regime in Germania would be the ones to be attacked, considering that they were the ones developing the Blitz Krieg tactics (learned from the British in WWI) that revolutionized modern warfare.

 

[jobiwan7]

Thank you for the comments.

Eventually, the "barbarians" became more civilized--forming the medieval fuedal society. Historically, the church (Rome-based) helped to accomplish this. In my alternate history, Rome actually controls much of Europe, and "Romanizes" them.

As for WWII, Germany is still the aggressor in the north. I only described details that are different from what actually happened.

 

[Plotinus]

It would also be interesting to see how Christianity develops differently. Without the division of the empire into two, Christianity would remain far more united. After the councils of Ephesus (431) and Rome (451, instead of Constantinople), the Monophysites and Nestorians would be far more effectively put down, becoming no more than footnotes in the history of heresy. The Church of the East and the Nubian and Ethiopian churches, as well as Armenia, would all remain within the Catholic Church, subject to the control of the emperor, God's regent on earth. Meanwhile, the continued presence of the emperor in Rome would mean that the Papacy would not become nearly as strong as in real life. Catholicism would develop along the lines that the Orthodox Church did in real life, with a number of patriarchs, all recognising that Rome is primary among them, but no more. Roman history would be punctuated by periods when emperor and patriarchs fall out over ecclesiastical matters, and other periods when they are united. No doubt there would often be cases of emperors and patriarchs being related. All this would be like seventeenth-century Russia.

Of course, when the Augustinian monk Martinus Lutherus protests against all this in 1517 - nailing up his 95 theses protesting at church taxes going to the imperial treasury - a storm is unleashed. The rise of Lutheranism in the northern part of the empire is one of the key reasons for the loss of the northern territories over the following four hundred years, as northern and southern Europe drift apart, first in religion and then in culture.

 

[jobiwan7]

Interesing theories and ideas. They will very likely be in the Mod, if I get help for it.