New leader traits?

[Saim]

If there is an expansion after BtS (which there hopefully will be) wont they need new leader traits? Since there are 16 new leaders in BtS and 18 remaining combinations. Maybe some of these could be new traits for the expansion after BtS:

Traits
Ambitious
Less build time for Wonders.

Patriotic
Morale promotion to UU, double production speed of UB.

Militaristic
Double production speed for all military units.

Colonialistic
Settlers and naval units gain +1 movement bonus.

Religious
Double culture for religious buildings. (Monolith, Apostolical Palace, Monastery, Temple, [special religious building ie Mandir], [religious wonder, ie Church of Nativity].

Idealistic
Extra bonuses on civics (especially favored civic).

Cruel
Maybe some general bonus to build times.

Changed Leaders
Qin Shi Huang: Cruel/Ambitious
Mao Zedong: Cruel/Idealistic
Washington: Idealistic/Patriotic
Saladin: Patriotic/Religious
Elizabeth: Colonialistic/Financial
Montezuma: Aggressive/Religious
Hatshepsut: Creative/Religious
Genghis Khan: Aggressive/Militaristic
Kublai Khan: Militaristic/Creative
Isabella: Colonialistic/Religious
Stalin: Cruel/Industrious
Rameses: Religious/Industrious
Mehmed: Religious/Expansive
Brennus: Religious/Charismatic
Shaka: Militaristic/Expansive

 

[JujuLautre]

Militaristic
Double production speed for all military units.

wtf?

This one seems waaaaaay too much overpowered

Also, ambitious is like industrious; patriotic is a nice idea, but perhaps also overpowered (if combined with the right UU/UB); colonialistic is a nice idea but perhaps too weak (and imperialistic has already this kind of idea); religious is really, well, religious-oriented, but why not (being religious-oriented, I would like it); cruel seems bad too me (all traits have some positive side except perhaps aggressive, but this one is really negative; and saying that some famous people are cruel is perhaps problematic).

 

[bonafide11]

You have a couple decent ideas, but overall I don't like most of it... Needs to be thought out some more... Double production speed of all military units? that's insanely overpowered... and why add a trait ("ambitious") that only replicates what another trait already does (industrious)?

 

[Saim]

Yeah, I know, I just thought it up in a few seconds. I'm not great at civ4 and I have no idea what is balanced and what is not. Also I forgot Industrious helped with Wonders as well, maybe Ambitious could let you build two buildings at once or a building and a unit (this sounds overpowered tho)? About Cruel, most (sane) people agree that Qin Shi Huang, Mao Zedong and Stalin where cruel leaders, plus it would give a positive bonus (like extra worker production or something). I don't think Colonialistic is like Imperialistic at all... and yes I agree it is underpowered, maybe +2 movement for gunpowder and naval units?

Just trying to start a discsussion about leader traits, since this forum strangely has a lack of it (yes, I did use the search function).

 

[Thedrin]

There are nineteen unused trait combinations and 3 which are consistently cited as being overpowered leaving behind 16 usable traits. There are 16 leaders to be added to the game.

 

[Thedrin]

Well, it's been said esewhere, but the only trait that i can see room for - the only trait whose theme doesn't cross over into the themes of another trait - would be a seafaring trait;

Seafaring (recieves only two of the following three bonuses)
1) Cheap harbours (expansive gets cheap aquaducts instead) and drydocks (aggressive gets cheap stables instead).
2) 50% bonus to all trade route incomes.
3) All naval units recieve a free promotion (as with aggressive and protective trait), such as combat I or drill I.

 

[Saim]

Seafaring is more of a trait for a civilization than a leader... it's a good idea but I think it needs a different name.

 

[Thedrin]

The name is irrelevant. The charismatic trait could be relabelled 'pacifist' but the bonuses it provides would still be valued by warmongers.

 

[JujuLautre]

About Cruel, most (sane) people agree that Qin Shi Huang, Mao Zedong and Stalin where cruel leaders, plus it would give a positive bonus (like extra worker production or something).

One thing is for you to think that. One other is for the creators of the game to give such an opinion which could not please to other people. This is exactly for this reason that they created 7 religions with exactly the same effects, this is what I want to say.

I don't think Colonialistic is like Imperialistic at all ... and yes I agree it is underpowered, maybe +2 movement for gunpowder and naval units?

It's the same idea behind, being the first to colonize lands; and +2 movements for gunpowder is completl insane.

@Thedrin > seafaring is a nice idea, but the remains that it will be either overpowered on sea-based maps, or under-powered on other maps. The others traits have the advantage of being neutral in this respect, so I don't think we'll have something like this. And I agree for the name; actually, I use creative much more for warmongering/settling fast than for anything else

 

[Fuzzz]

How about nomadic?
> free Flanking 1 promo for mounted units and recon ( = scouts & explorers) units?
(> reduced costs for stable (?) )

This would be good for the new BtS-leader who represents the native Americans and perhaps also even for the Mongols if they tweaked around with the Ger (only +2xp, but -10 city maintenance costs for example).

 

[Gaius Octavius]

I would like to see seafaring above all the rest. Very nice.

Thedrin, besides Industrious/Philosophical, what are the other forbidden combos?

 

[Thedrin]

The other ones that are most frequently cited as being overpowered (in this thread I'm not claiming they are or are not) are aggressive/charismatic and financial/organised.

 

[Monado]

Well, it's been said esewhere, but the only trait that i can see room for - the only trait whose theme doesn't cross over into the themes of another trait - would be a seafaring trait;

What would you think about some kind of agricultural trait. There was one in Civ3 Conquests (it seemed overpowered if I remember correctly.) I am not sure if it is represented in the Civ4 themes yet. Any ideas?

I hope that there will be 1-2 more traits added. I don't want Firaxis to jam the 16 BtS leaders into the remaining trait combinations. This could lead to many leaders not being represented accurately.

 

[Thedrin]

What would you think about some kind of agricultural trait. There was one in Civ3 Conquests (it seemed overpowered if I remember correctly.) I am not sure if it is represented in the Civ4 themes yet. Any ideas?

Expansive = agricultural.

Remember that a city doesn't stop growing when it reaches its health cap. Instead it needs 3 for each new unit of population, not 2. Expansive's +2 adds 2 to the end of a city's growth (instead of the beginning of a city's growth which was overpowered in CivIII).

I hope that there will be 1-2 more traits added. I don't want Firaxis to jam the 16 BtS leaders into the remaining trait combinations. This could lead to many leaders not being represented accurately.

Currently there are nineteen unused trait combinations. If the expansion added just one new trait there would be 11 new trait combinations. Minus one for each of the 16 new leaders leaves a total of 14 unused trait combinations. There's no need for two new traits in order to provide the designers with plenty of trait combination options. (2 added traits would leave 26 trait combinations unused).

Personally, I'm leaning towards prefering that no new traits be added. There were only two traits missing from Vanilla. One was creative/organised, a trait I really wanted to try out. In Warlords there are even more missing trait combinations that I'd like to try out (without going through the code). If no new traits are added to BtS then there won't be any traits missing that I'd like to try out.

 

[Monado]

Expansive = agricultural.

Remember that a city doesn't stop growing when it reaches its health cap. Instead it needs 3 for each new unit of population, not 2. Expansive's +2 adds 2 to the end of a city's growth (instead of the beginning of a city's growth which was overpowered in CivIII).

Makes a lot of sense.

Currently there are nineteen unused trait combinations. If the expansion added just one new trait there would be 11 new trait combinations. Minus one for each of the 16 new leaders leaves a total of 14 unused trait combinations. There's no need for two new traits in order to provide the designers with plenty of trait combination options. (2 added traits would leave 26 trait combinations unused).

Personally, I'm leaning towards prefering that no new traits be added. There were only two traits missing from Vanilla. One was creative/organised, a trait I really wanted to try out. In Warlords there are even more missing trait combinations that I'd like to try out (without going through the code). If no new traits are added to BtS then there won't be any traits missing that I'd like to try out.

Two traits could be overkill, but I do hope they add one. I like how (in Warlords) there are many trait combo's missing. Just my preference though.

 

[Diamondeye]

Remember that a city doesn't stop growing when it reaches its health cap. Instead it needs 3 for each new unit of population, not 2. Expansive's +2 adds 2 to the end of a city's growth (instead of the beginning of a city's growth which was overpowered in CivIII).

I believe, talking Vanilla, that the Exp. bonus is +3 .
Also, another reason for the agri trait to be overkill was that it forced you to start next to fresh water - A nice advantage for your capital!

 

[Thedrin]

True. 3 in 1.61, 2 + 50% extra production towards workers in 2.08

 

[Mewtarthio]

Ambitious
Less build time for Wonders.

Aside from the fact that this duplicates Industrious, it actually makes a decent amount of sense to include this trait. The only problem is finding an appropriate mechanical justification. Maybe some of BtS's new concepts will work out (a propaganda bonus would probably fit--Ambition implies something to do with internal affairs).

Patriotic
Morale promotion to UU, double production speed of UB.

Extremely limited. Also, I'm not quite sure what you mean by a "patriotic" leader. He kind of has a vested interest in keeping the country alive, no? I can't really imagine an especially patriotic leader beyond what's already covered by Charismatic.

Militaristic
Double production speed for all military units.

We've already got "Agressive"; what's the real difference? Also, as a rule, leader traits should not give the benefit of a National Wonder to every city.

Colonialistic
Settlers and naval units gain +1 movement bonus.

This falls under "Imperialistic," though I like the mechanical trait.

Religious
Double culture for religious buildings. (Monolith, Apostolical Palace, Monastery, Temple, [special religious building ie Mandir], [religious wonder, ie Church of Nativity].

See Spiritual.

Idealistic
Extra bonuses on civics (especially favored civic).

This makes sense, though I don't like the idea of a trait's bonuses being tied to a specific civic. Could you clarify this at all?

Cruel
Maybe some general bonus to build times.

I pity the poor gaming company that declares anyone short of Adolf Hitler to be outright evil. Besides, if I want to play a cruel monster, I'll run Police State--Vassalage--Slavery--State Property--Theocracy.

 

[Moon Pine]

Here are my new traits
Zealous
-50% from Sacrifice, Draft amd War.
-50% for next population growth after Sacrifice or Draft, -75% if Sacri or draft again before growth.
Drafted units get 75% Exp from Barracks and Civic instead of none.
-1 population cost if Sacrifice or Draft costs 2 or more pops.

Commercial
+1 source on the resource that there`s 2 or more sources(For example, if you have 2 sources of Copper, you have 3 of them if you are a commercial leader).
+1 for all cities.
Double production speed of Market, Grocer and Supermarket.

Seafaring
Free Navigation I Promotion for all Naval Units.
Free Amphibious Promotion for all Melee and Gunpowder Units.
Free Commando Promotion for Marine.
+50% production for Work Boat.
Fish Boat and Whale Boat +1 and .
Double production speed of Habor and Drydock(Barracks and Stable for Aggressive).

Judicious
Specialist provide 1 .
1 free specialist for capital if capital have 6 or larger population.
+1 Specialist limit for all citys smaller than 6 population and +2 for 6 pop or higher citys.
Great People in city privide +1

Scientific
More likely to get free tech from Tribe Villages.
A free previous-era tech when enter a new era(You can`t access new era tech by this).
+25% for technologies aquired by any 2 known civilization.
Double production speed of Observatory and Laboratory.

 

[Skirmisher]

Adventurous:
+1 happy face while at war. "Oh what a lovely war", a citizen says.
+ 50 % production for scouts, explorers, caravels and spies.
Gains two free techs of own choice for being the first exploring or revealing the whole map. (This should make map trading interesting)

Colonialistic:
The worker unit can build the new improvement: colonies, which connect resources outside the borders of the empire. These are either connected via roads or sea. (And ocean once astronomy has been researched.) A Colony can be razed and if it falls within another civs borders with whom one does not have open borders it is automatically destroyed.
Double production of grocer and supermarket.