New resource system, unit attrition and more

[NikG]

No need to apologize. It is okay.

 

[Gunner]

Wow, I really love this idea NikG. I think that one of the great benefits of it is that modern armies won't be entirely composed of tanks anymore, which has always struck me as extremely unrealistic. If infantry don't require oil they will gain a great new use in the game which should be much closer to their real life one.

About supply lines, I think some type of in depth simulation of suppy lines should be made at some point (not necessarily by you). For now, however, the model you have now is good and should work adequately. Once you get the main idea working well I think it would then be good to branch off onto a new area.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

OK NikG, I do have to say that idea is excellent-for a scenario-especially if the turns of this scenario measured days, weeks or months. For the more Epic game, though, I would like to put forward the following model:

1) Each resource plot has a 'Size' rating-1 for Small, 2 for Average and 3 for Large (possible a 4 for extra large). The total number and size of these resource deposits gives you the total 'Pool' for that resource. e.g. say I have 3 lots of iron-each of size 2, then my total Iron pool is 6 units.

2) Now, this resource pool is divided by a combination of (your number of cities+total number of resource dependant units)*100-to give you a percentage.

3) Depending on what direction you take, this % could either be multiplied by a 'resouce scarcity factor' (horses less scarce than Iron, Iron less scarce than Oil etc), to give you a chance of a single resource deposit disappearing each turn.

4) Another way to do it is to have the % (again possibly modified by a scarcity factor) applied to unit and improvement building times, # of happy faces produced (in the case of luxuries) or the growth rate/health of cities (in the case of food resources). It will also be applied to the combat strength of units dependant on that resource.

5) Obviously units traded away do not count for the purpose of calculating this %.

6) Certain techs will either multiply or divide the resource pool for the purposes of calculating the %. For instance, combustion will multiply the 'horse' pool, as the demand for horses by the domestic economy has dropped.

7) On a seperate, yet related track, units in foreign territory must be within X squares of 'home territory' in order to fight at full strength-otherwise they are considered 'Out of Supply'. Such units have a lowered combat strength and a slower healing time. Resource-dependant units (like Tanks) are impacted even worse by being out of supply. 'Home Territory', for this purpose, are forts, captured cities or your own borders.

Now, here is a possible working example: Say you have the 6 units of Iron I mentioned before. You have 8 cities and no iron dependant units at present. This means that all you build times for units and buildings are (6/8)*100 or 75% of their normal level. So those 20 hammers per turn will now be more like 15. This could make larger empires very inefficient if they are low in several different resources-which in turn will drive the trade aspect of the game.

The point, though, is that if it is easy to do in SDK, then the system shouldn't add too much micromanagement for the player IF it is well represented in the Resource/Trade table. 'Depleted' resources could be in Red, whilst Excess/Surplus resources could be in Green.

Anyway, hope this makes sense, and I look forward to hearing what you think of this model.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[NikG]

First of, wow, thank for the input, really need some ideas, however I am not totally clear on certain points:

1) Each resource plot has a 'Size' rating-1 for Small, 2 for Average and 3 for Large (possible a 4 for extra large). The total number and size of these resource deposits gives you the total 'Pool' for that resource. e.g. say I have 3 lots of iron-each of size 2, then my total Iron pool is 6 units.

Ok, nice and simple, and aint hard to understand, even for the AI...

2) Now, this resource pool is divided by a combination of (your number of cities+total number of resource dependant units)*100-to give you a percentage.

Likewise

3) Depending on what direction you take, this % could either be multiplied by a 'resouce scarcity factor' (horses less scarce than Iron, Iron less scarce than Oil etc), to give you a chance of a single resource deposit disappearing each turn.

Here I begin to have problems... Why should it be based on the initial pool? Maybe you what to mimic if we have few resource deposits and alot of resource are being used, the change of a deposit disapperaing is increasing, am I right? The problem is just that few deposits and many "resource using entities" will give a very small percentage, which is not right, or have I miss something

4) Another way to do it is to have the % (again possibly modified by a scarcity factor) applied to unit and improvement building times, # of happy faces produced (in the case of luxuries) or the growth rate/health of cities (in the case of food resources). It will also be applied to the combat strength of units dependant on that resource.

5) Obviously units traded away do not count for the purpose of calculating this %.

6) Certain techs will either multiply or divide the resource pool for the purposes of calculating the %. For instance, combustion will multiply the 'horse' pool, as the demand for horses by the domestic economy has dropped.

Can you get in more detail maybe...

7) On a seperate, yet related track, units in foreign territory must be within X squares of 'home territory' in order to fight at full strength-otherwise they are considered 'Out of Supply'. Such units have a lowered combat strength and a slower healing time. Resource-dependant units (like Tanks) are impacted even worse by being out of supply. 'Home Territory', for this purpose, are forts, captured cities or your own borders.

Yes something like this, but I have already plenty of ideas racing through my head, so I dont know what to say yet.

Now, here is a possible working example: Say you have the 6 units of Iron I mentioned before. You have 8 cities and no iron dependant units at present. This means that all you build times for units and buildings are (6/8)*100 or 75% of their normal level. So those 20 hammers per turn will now be more like 15. This could make larger empires very inefficient if they are low in several different resources-which in turn will drive the trade aspect of the game.

Okay as I understand it, the 20 hammers per turn that should be used to build this unit, is decreased to 15. Or is it literally that the build time for the unit/building is decreased to 75%? I mean if you suddenly get 8 more cities we have this calculation: (6/16) * 100 = 37.5%. If it should be taken literally, this will mean the opposite of what you have written, that large empires are inefficient. Or is it just me, that cant read today?

The point, though, is that if it is easy to do in SDK, then the system shouldn't add too much micromanagement for the player IF it is well represented in the Resource/Trade table. 'Depleted' resources could be in Red, whilst Excess/Surplus resources could be in Green.

Easy and easy ... It will take sometime, but it is certainly possible...

Really nice and potent ideas... Keep it coming!

 

[Gyathaar]

Was reading this thread.. and the ideas I thought of differs slightly from what has been written so far...

Basically..:
- make every resource give a yield... say an oil well produce 50 oil per turn (could go up with new techs or down over time).. all the oil that is not consumed going into a civwide pool of oil like another currency... this stored oil could be sold to other civs, or traded for other resources.. eg you can sell 10 units of oil for 100gold and 30 units of gems.

- some construction would take up a certain number of units to make.. say a swordman costs 1 iron to make.. while a battleship costs either 10 uranium and 100 iron to build or it costs 2 oil to run per turn and 100 iron to build (if built with uranium it would never need fuel)

- tanks would cost some iron to build, and would cost 1 oil every turn it moves in friendly territory.. or 2 oil every turn it moves in enemy territory (the unit supplying them would need oil) (exception would be if moved by rails.. then it could cost 1 coal instead, or if they are located on an enemy oil field)

- coal plants would use a certain amount of coal per turn

- cities would use max 1 unit of each type of lux to stay happy (use as many luxes as available untill it is no longer unhappy)

- every unit would eat 1 food unit every turn unless it is on an enemy food resource/farm (takes their food instead.. and they get no yield that turn) (This means food rich civs could sell extra food from resources and farms to other civs forth other needed resources)

- could also make 10 turn trade deals for say 10 oil per turn for 20 food per turn

 

[NikG]

Got some new ideas thanks Gyathaar. Will return later, but now it is sleeping time.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Well, here is a REALLY radical suggestion-one which could be applied either to replace, or as an addendum to, my original suggestion.

We all know that Inflation is currently a bit of a 'Black Box' factor in your Economic Advisor Screen. So, how about we make it more 'real'? We start by calculating inflation on the basis of the size of your nation, coupled with technology effects, then divide the inflation rate by 'resource scarcity'. So for instance, in my example city from above-which has 6 iron to supply 8 cities-if it had a starting inflation rate of 5%, then its paucity of iron resources would raise this to 6.5%. Given that this inflation rate is applied to research costs, as well as city and unit maintainance cost, this would make resource scarcity very financially draining-particularly on larger nations.
Anyway, just a thought.

Aussie_Lurker.

 

[sarcastinator]

I love this whole line of thought. Of course, I'm more interested in what's real than what's easy to implement, so feel free to ignore me, but I've been thinking about this since my first game of Civ 3.

A handful of resources should definitely be pooled into a central bankroll, like oil. To make it more real, you might limit the maximum amount of a resource you can have in 'storage' based on number of cities, certain improvements, etc. Other resources might make more sense to only take what you need, but that would make being cut off instantly fatal to the economy - which is scary, but too over the top to be either fun or realistic. Some resources, though, wouldn't make much sense at all to keep a cumulative total of - I don't know any food product that keeps for 500 years.

The issue of making resource deposits finite is way above my pay grade in terms of implementing it, but I'm all for trying it.

 

[Impaler[WrG]]

NIckG, I was in full understanding of your planned system of supply and I stand by every word of my earlier post. I re-iterate the system will consume too much of the players time in Micro Managment, will be extreamly detrimental to the AI's ability to intelligently fight a war and is not even remotly realistic. Gyathaar is on the right track with the simplified system sililar to what I sugjested earlier. Distance baseded resupply and individual unit stockpiles will not be fun or practical. I beg you to reconsider before wasting considerable effect coding these features.

 

[Mesix]

I agree with some of the posts that say that this should not increase micro management. If you make it too complicated, it can detract from the fun of the game. I think that there is a much simpler way to make oil important in modern times while not making it overly complex.

Why not make mechanical units like tanks and planes require not only access to oil, but a defined oil supply. Each oil resource could provide the necessary upkeep for a defined number of units. For example, each worked oil tile may support ten units. If a civ has seven oil resources, they can suppot seventy units. If there are more units, they will disband. More advanced units might require more upkeep than older basic units. Tech advances could improve fuel efficiency offseting the cost of new units.

Oil could also provide civic benefits to cities if there is excess over what is required to meet the demands of the military. This would create a trade off...do I want to support a large military or provide my oil resources for cival development?

This would make oil very valuable and worth going to war over in the late game. Instrad of having a stockpile displayed, the loss of an oil resource could have a delayed effect (say ten turns) in which time a player would have to retake it, take another resource, or lose the unsupported units. This would simulated dwindling reserves without creating a complicated system.

 

[sarcastinator]

What's wrong with complexity if it stays mostly under the surface? No one's suggesting that the player should have to micromanage who gets supplied with what, unless they really want to for some reason. With the SDK giving access to the inner workings of the AI, it will hopefully be possible to teach the game to handle almost anything with exactly as much or as little imput as the player wants to give.

 

[Padmewan]

One suggestion I have to keep complexity down and realism up is to restrict the scope of this mod's intended design to modern times. If it turns out later basic concepts can be repurposed to earlier times, great, but one problem with Civ as a series is that its model works well for Ancient through Rennaissance and then starts falling apart as it hits the Industrial / Modern era. City size being restricted to what food is in its immediate area is no longer a problem of modern life.

Likewise, the importance of oil to modern life, as NikG pointed out early on, is not properly modeled either. A mod built entirely on modern economic and logistical/distribution systems will be more satisfying in capturing the-world-as-we-know-it but would likely fail in ancient times, just as a model built for ancient times is not satisfying for modern simulation.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[NikG]

sarcastinator, nice written.. It wouldnt be to hard to implement AI logic to cope with nearly everything.

Padmewan -> true, the idea first was just to get going on the SDK, learn it and the best way to learn is pratice, so I decided to implement something I thought should be in. But I see you point. Really this isnt a mod really, if it gets working well, we could get change the older eras. Padmewan the potential of the SDK is immense! Really, it not just python (which is powerfull, but awfull complicated, and un efficient), we could make any changes to (nearly) anything.

 

[Chalid]

The question is do we want to expand such mechanisms into the past and i don't think it is needed. The Assymetry between the Eras is what makes the game Interesting.

But to come back to the oil. thinking on the matter i came to the following conclusions.
Not only units should use up your oil reserves but especially the civilization needs oil for civilian purposes. The military aspect of oil for units might be relatively week. But consider what would happen in our time if suddenly we would nit have any more oil. No mor Cars for a while, no more plastics ans do on.

Considering this i would not hinder the Units when lack of oil appears but greatly reduce production in cities and the happiness. The main Oil consumtion should be a function of the population and not of units or unitmovement.

So no oil -> low production and low happiness.

This would lead to the situation that civs witout oil have to make war for it, and not the other way round that civs without oil cannot make war for oil as they cannot support advanced units....

Edit: The concept of a kind of supply for units would be more adequate for the ancient times, when your small band of warriors goes around the world... thats quite unrealistic... they should be forced to come back

 

[Padmewan]

Edit: The concept of a kind of supply for units would be more adequate for the ancient times, when your small band of warriors goes around the world... thats quite unrealistic... they should be forced to come back

Chalid, you are just making trouble

The question is do we want to expand such mechanisms into the past and i don't think it is needed. The Assymetry between the Eras is what makes the game Interesting.

I agree. In fact, when you hit the Industrial era the system of food should radically change, but that's just me. (I also think culture should take big hits on era changes, too, like the way Monastaries hit science, but that's another story).

Not only units should use up your oil reserves but especially the civilization needs oil for civilian purposes. The military aspect of oil for units might be relatively week. But consider what would happen in our time if suddenly we would nit have any more oil. No mor Cars for a while, no more plastics ans do on.

Someone been paying attention to the markets recently?

An alternative would be that each power plant uses a certain amount of a resource (coal, oil), and that the % boost of production that plant allows is linked to how much oil is available. Then we're moving from Civ to SimCity, but worth at least chewing on.

So no oil -> ... low happiness.

Not for environmentalists

 

[Jouda]

This would lead to the situation that civs witout oil have to make war for it, and not the other way round that civs without oil cannot make war for oil as they cannot support advanced units....

Assuming there is enough oil for everyone, the question is not who has got oil and who doesn't - you can always buy some oil if you don't have wells in your garden. The question is for how much


I'm starting to spend a lot of time here on the forums, I should give myself a break!

 

[Chalid]

[qoute]Someone been paying attention to the markets recently? [/quote]

Yes and i have the feeling that we are just seeing the beginning of the end of the worlds oil....
That brings me to another idea.. each oil well should hold a limited oil supply and you can decide via improvements how long it lasts...

 

[Padmewan]

That brings me to another idea.. each oil well should hold a limited oil supply and you can decide via improvements how long it lasts...

Well, I've suggested the idea of a "proven reserve" earlier in this thread.

Jouda: Actually one problem of this model, and what OPEC faces (according at least to the sources I read), is that oil has become a fungible commodity and that because of world markets it's no longer possible to cut nations off from oil, just make oil more expensive for everyone. In that respect, the idea of oil as a component of your economy may best be abstracted back into Gold/Money.

... which leads me to the idea that there could be another slider sometime in industrial times in which you can redirect all your money not into research or culture but rather production. An idea like this was briefly floated in the Catapult thread.

... which is to say that perhaps restricting this mod to unit supply is even more realistic, after all!

 

[sarcastinator]

Wait, that actually gives me a brilliant and completely unrelated idea. Once you hit industrial times (i'd say it should come with "Corporation" tech) you get the additional option of buying and selling resources on the open market instead of through direct deals.

 

[Blunt]

It should be noted that this is intended as a major overhaul. Already I have implemented the main function for the above oil using units. Now it only details left, ie. how the algorithm for resupplying units should work (okay it is not details, but when this is finished, it will be close to functioning)

If you are finished then wouldn't it be "fully functioning"