New Resources

[evonannoredars]

And while we are at it: I don't think there are any treasure resources in the water. If we had water-bases treasure resources, they would often spawn in locations that would be accessible for building treasure fleets (and not somewhere inland).

Oh aye that's a good idea. Pearls could also be upgraded to a treasure resource, otherwise coral might be fitting as a new one.

Some of this could be alleviated if treasures inland (in DL) could be exploited - e.g., with a valid inland connection to a port town in the DL.

Imo the ideal solution would be to have one settlement per landmass (ie connected by land) designated as the 'launching point' for all treasure fleets, all settlements on the same landmass funnel their treasure resource points into that city (with an option to change the launch settlement ofc).

Would make treasure fleets feel more significant too I reckon: rather than sending off four one or two-point ships from all over the continent, you launch a single, very valuable unit. Piracy would be more worthwhile too, as it is capturing a treasure fleet aint very impactful, whereas figuring out where the AI are launching their treasure fleets from and tracking down a single high-value fleet would be more worthwhile.

 

[sixty4half]

I like that idea. Setting up blockades would be awesome. I forsee some awesome naval battles in a setup like that.

 

[Krikkit1]

I like that idea. Setting up blockades would be awesome. I forsee some awesome naval battles in a setup like that.

Perhaps "Treasure Caravans" that act like Trade Caravans carry a small number of points from each settlement, can go to a Location and combine to become a "Treasure Fleet"

 

[queenpea]

I would love if treasure fleets were more vulnerable -- I don't think they should need to hit more than twice to be captured.

 

[Siptah]

I would love if treasure fleets were more vulnerable -- I don't think they should need to hit more than twice to be captured.

I don‘t see why they can‘t just behave like settlers and workers in civ VI: if an opponent military unit is on the same tile, they switch colors.

 

[sixty4half]

Would definitely make naval escorts more valuable

 

[CliffCo]

I don‘t see why they can‘t just behave like settlers and workers in civ VI: if an opponent military unit is on the same tile, they switch colors.

I believe historically at least some of the treasure ships were armed with cannons depending on which country they belonged to and their route, others required a warship as an escort. Having to engage in battle with them adds a bit more realism.

 

[queenpea]

I believe historically at least some of the treasure ships were armed with cannons depending on which country they belonged to and their route, others required a warship as an escort. Having to engage in battle with them adds a bit more realism.

Perhaps, but they don't damage the attacker, and given that the AI will barely raise a finger against your treasure fleets, making them more vulnerable would be more exciting for gameplay, in my opinion. That said, this is probably at the bottom of the list of priorities to fix in the Exploration age.

 

[CliffCo]

Perhaps, but they don't damage the attacker, and given that the AI will barely raise a finger against your treasure fleets, making them more vulnerable would be more exciting for gameplay, in my opinion. That said, this is probably at the bottom of the list of priorities to fix in the Exploration age.

I agree that the ship attacking them should receive at least some damage and that the AI should target our treasure ships, but i don't agree that a treasure ship should just surrender as soon as a ship enters their hex or an adjacent one.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

A bit of background, mostly in regard to the Spanish flota galleons or Manila galleons, which are probably the best-recorded of all the various historical 'treasure fleets'

First, far more Treasure Galleons were lost to storms - especially hurricanes in the Caribbean - than to enemy action.

Second, when ships were lost to an enemy, it was very, very rarely in the open ocean. Ships were just too hard to find in the open ocean, so most battles took place in or just offshore from a port or a meeting/assembly point for the treasure fleets, or in the port itself as part of an attack on the city. In fact, only one Spanish treasure fleet was ever destroyed/captured by an enemy - the Dutch admiral Piet Hein took an entire fleet as it approached Spain from the New World, but he used an entire Dutch naval fleet to do it.

Third, there was a distinct difference in real life (which is not made in the game) between individual Galleons and 'Treasure' Fleets of Galleons. The treasure fleets that ran between the Caribbean and Spain were largely composed of special 'flota galleons' of about 600 tons each and carrying 20 - 40 cannon, and including frigates and other warships as escorts. As posted above, only one such fleet was ever captured by an enemy in over 200 years.
The Manila Galleons that moved between the Spanish New World and Asia, on the other hand, usually sailed alone, and were much bigger ships - averaging 2000 tons. They were also almost all built in either Manila or Mexico rather than Spain, and sailed with 'native' crews from the Americas or Asia. These are the ships that sailed from America with up to 2,000,000 silver coins each bound for the Chinese market, and returned loaded with silk and porcelain: each ship carrying the modern dollar value of almost an entire fleet's cargo.

In game terms, since all of the Legacy ships are referred to as 'fleets' we have to assume the game is bunching individual galleons and fleets of flota galleons together in one unit. That being true, they should be very hard to capture or destroy - historically, it only happened once, and very few individual ships were ever taken out of the fleets, either - whereas the majority of 'treasure wrecks' found are of ships that went down in storms, both in or out of fleets.

Privateers, by the way, whether full-blown Pirates or hiding behind letters of marque, never took a treasure fleet and rarely even attacked one - they stuck to individual ships or very rarely raiding the ports they sailed from or to. In game terms, then, 'Pirates; would be an annoying nuisance but no major threat to the Treasure Fleets.

 

[MutilationWave]

A bit of background, mostly in regard to the Spanish flota galleons or Manila galleons, which are probably the best-recorded of all the various historical 'treasure fleets'

First, far more Treasure Galleons were lost to storms - especially hurricanes in the Caribbean - than to enemy action.

Second, when ships were lost to an enemy, it was very, very rarely in the open ocean. Ships were just too hard to find in the open ocean, so most battles took place in or just offshore from a port or a meeting/assembly point for the treasure fleets, or in the port itself as part of an attack on the city. In fact, only one Spanish treasure fleet was ever destroyed/captured by an enemy - the Dutch admiral Piet Hein took an entire fleet as it approached Spain from the New World, but he used an entire Dutch naval fleet to do it.

Third, there was a distinct difference in real life (which is not made in the game) between individual Galleons and 'Treasure' Fleets of Galleons. The treasure fleets that ran between the Caribbean and Spain were largely composed of special 'flota galleons' of about 600 tons each and carrying 20 - 40 cannon, and including frigates and other warships as escorts. As posted above, only one such fleet was ever captured by an enemy in over 200 years.
The Manila Galleons that moved between the Spanish New World and Asia, on the other hand, usually sailed alone, and were much bigger ships - averaging 2000 tons. They were also almost all built in either Manila or Mexico rather than Spain, and sailed with 'native' crews from the Americas or Asia. These are the ships that sailed from America with up to 2,000,000 silver coins each bound for the Chinese market, and returned loaded with silk and porcelain: each ship carrying the modern dollar value of almost an entire fleet's cargo.

In game terms, since all of the Legacy ships are referred to as 'fleets' we have to assume the game is bunching individual galleons and fleets of flota galleons together in one unit. That being true, they should be very hard to capture or destroy - historically, it only happened once, and very few individual ships were ever taken out of the fleets, either - whereas the majority of 'treasure wrecks' found are of ships that went down in storms, both in or out of fleets.

Privateers, by the way, whether full-blown Pirates or hiding behind letters of marque, never took a treasure fleet and rarely even attacked one - they stuck to individual ships or very rarely raiding the ports they sailed from or to. In game terms, then, 'Pirates; would be an annoying nuisance but no major threat to the Treasure Fleets.

Informative as always, awesome Boris.

Most of the historical inaccuracy here could be fixed by renaming the ships something other than fleet. They clearly do not behave as a fleet. And if they did, some players might think well forget about that one treasure point, I'm gonna take a town with this thing!

I would love to see piracy become a big part of the economic legacy. Every civ should be about to build privateers, create letters of marque that cost a bunch of influence, or perhaps hire straight up pirates to take treasure ships. Then they would need escorts unless you were playing without caution. You would need to make a proper "fleet" for protection of the cargo.

The base issue remains though. The opponents don't seem to really know that a treasure resource is, and happen to get treasure "fleets" by accident. Then it is programmed to return them to homelands.

We can go one layer deeper and talk about how the opponents don't seem to know what a resource is at all. They certainly don't settle like it.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Informative as always, awesome Boris.

Most of the historical inaccuracy here could be fixed by renaming the ships something other than fleet. They clearly do not behave as a fleet. And if they did, some players might think well forget about that one treasure point, I'm gonna take a town with this thing!

I would love to see piracy become a big part of the economic legacy. Every civ should be about to build privateers, create letters of marque that cost a bunch of influence, or perhaps hire straight up pirates to take treasure ships. Then yhey would need escorts unless you were playing without caution. You would need to make a proper "fleet" for protection of the cargo.

The base issue remains though. The opponents don't seem to really know that a treasure resource is, and happen to get treasure "fleets" by accident. Then it is programmed to return them to homelands.

Sigh.
Back in the Civ VI Age (SWAG Age?) I argued that the Flota Galleon should be a Spanish Unique.

But in Civ VII, they have moved away from indiviualized unique or regular units, and shoved all the individualizarion up a level to fleet and army commanders. This, I suspect, is part of why the 'treasure' units are called Fleets rather than individual ships. On the other hand, the graphic is distinctly that of an individual ship, so as usual the game is inconsistent in what it supposedly is representing.

The other problem is that Treasure Ships/Fleets are coded as 'civilian/support' units, which makes it harder to represent any significant combat capability in them. In fact, as I posted, ALL the ships carrying 'treasure' IRL were armed, some of them significantly better than regular warships like frigates, so it should require some military effort to take one, whether it represents a fleet or an individual ship.

The lack of piracy or any real 'pirate' mechanic is another example of the Gross Simplification of the game. In fact, IP Galleys can be a significant threat to land units on the coast and even early Settlements on the coast in Antiquity - I have lost a settlement to a swarm of IP galleys, which never happened in Civ V or Civ VI. Yet in the Golden Age of Piracy (late Exploration Age in Civ VII, roughly) there is no piratical activity at all except by coastal pillaging Civilization units. Not just Treasure Fleets/Ships should be at risk - English, Dutch and French 'pirates' (privateers) in fleet concentrations raided and threatened entire ports throughout the world and leaving all of that out of the Age where it belongs historically seems a waste of a potentially fascinating part of the game.