So in this thread I am going to collect my various postings from the last few games and try to provide a more concise and detailed feedback on the new spy concept. Others are welcome to post their own thoughts in this thread as well.
UI Notes
A note on Turn Times
Note that my turn times are not just mission times. When I give a number I mean Travel Time + Surveillance Time + Mission time....as that is the actual time to complete a mission.
To me there are two kinds of missions right now:
Timing Important Missions (Target City Defenses, Disrupt Local Production - aka for wonder killing)
For these two missions, there needs to be a good and quick feedback mechanism to allow a player to properly use these missions and time it with other actions they are doing.
I think the absolute maximum for these missions should be 8 turns on standard speed. 8 turns gives me a chance to disrupt a wonder in production, and allows me to use target defenses in an active siege. Any longer than this and the missions become unwieldy, especially disrupt production....the only reason I would ever use this is to delay wonders, and therefore there is no point in starting the mission if the wonder is going to finish before the mission completes.
Timing Independent Missions (Everything else)
Most missions I just do the thing and get the thing, or do a general screw on another player. I don't have to really time things too much to get the benefits of these.
I think a target of 20-30 turns is the right window (roughly in TR time ranges). This ensures some adjustments and flexibility in my missions without the spies becoming too onerous. I could see maybe as quick as 15 turns, but more than that just feels tedious.
General Variability
Right now turn times are heavily swingy based on security, and I think its much too varied. I don't mind that a high security city reduces my yields and slows down my missions a bit....but in the 20 turns goes to 23 turns kind of thing, not 20 to 30. Turns should be relatively consistent. Personally I would love if we removed turn time variance entirely (I made a post detailing that idea here: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/spy-rework-suggestions-here.669495/page-6#post-16087603)
Spy Philosophy: Good for me vs Bad for You
There is a reason thieves only work outside the capital (and people still complain about them), getting your stuff taken just feels really really bad. Its not fun, so the times we should let spies actually take from another player need to be:
Quick Note on Era Scaling
I will detail some thoughts in each post, but as a blanket statement: Era scaling by itself isn't going to work. In most cases, era scaled yields start out strong and get weaker over time. That's generally intentional and completely fine, as they are generated from sources that are supposed to be less relevant over time.
If we use era scaling only to adjust our yields, than spies will automatically become worse over time. So we would either need to let their missions run faster (which means they become more tedious over time), or they need additional scaling to stay relevant. I will post my thoughts below.
Spy Detection and Kill Chances
Right now these number adjust by a few % points, and sometimes are so low that they don't factor into my decision making. Detection especially, the difference between a regular mission and a "involved" one should be minimum 25% spy detection chance, probably 50% to actually make it a factor in my decision making.
Now kill chances are much more important, but I'm not changing my missions due to a 1-4% kill difference, probably 10% is the lowest lever I would look at.
Disrupt Local Production
As I mentioned before, I really see this as a Wonder delaying tactic. Conceptually I like that, the issue with Wonders right now is they are so Culture and Science dependent, that the actual hammer part of the wonder is not as much of a factor (except through a GE). If an opponent starts a wonder just 1 more turn ahead of me because of a culture advantage....the amount of hammers it takes to make up for that is actually quite high. So having another lever in the wonder race is interesting. As the wonder "race" is truly that, this is an area of high interest.
I think this mission is best served to be balanced and retooled around wonders. Instead of a general screw that can just be used to strip an enemy capital down to nothing, I think making it a noticeable but non-stackable hit on wonders gives it a solid and unique niche.
My recommendation: Rename to "Sabotage Large Project". Wonders and Projects in the city suffer a -10% production penalty for 10 turns. Prereq: City is working on a project, and is not already suffering from this mission. The mission times should be extremely quick, probably 1-2 turns from when I see the wonder and want to start the delay.
That last piece I think is important to prevent stacking, both from your own spies but also to prevent multiple civs from trying to hit the same person. This way if another civ is already disrupting wonder prod in a city, you don't do the same mission but "waste" your effort.
Raid Local Treasury
I personally think this one can be removed. I spy for tech, I spy to hinder my opponent, just getting gold in comparison seems like a waste of time. If you do want to keep it its going to need a big scale up to be relevant. Also, it shouldn't take longer than other missions like it does now.
In terms of scaling, one interesting way to scale it is based on your own Great Merchants. Think of it as "the more financial experts my civ has, the better I am able to hack someone else's". So as the GM scales with towns (and whatever scales the GM mission if there is anything), so do the raid missions.
Poison Water Supply
Honestly, this is just an unfun screw you to other civs. Its either minor enough to not matter, or it can cripple your growth at key times. And its honestly boring, after a few of these you'll just have this nigh permanent -10 to food all the time, nothing interesting about that.
I think this one really should just be removed. It doesn't provide anything of real value to the game.
Radicalize the Rural Citizenry
Similar to Poison water, this just ensures a steady stream of pain in your civ, nothing you can do except just have an army of workers around to clean up the mess. Its not interesting, its just unfun.
I think there is a way to make this a more important hit...shifting it away from general mayhem and go for the jugular, the strategic resources.
Recommendation: Change to "Sabotage: 1 strategic resource near the city is pillaged. Prereq: A strategic resource is improved near the city, and the mission is not currently active"
Again I think that last clause is important, we don't want all of your strategic resources to be constantly pillaged, as that is not fun either. But a strategic and deliberate removal of strategic resources during war can be a very interesting moment
Infiltrate Local Science Facilities
So my thought here....lets just go back to the tech steal. The mechanic does all the work for us, it only works if you have a tech I don't, it auto scales, and its a big "fun" moment to get a tech compared to just getting some yields every so often.
I am fine with reducing the strength compared to today's tech steal in favor of a smoother curve, the issue today is you can steal techs like crazy at first, then after a time you will never be able to steal again....and spy level creates a huge variance in how quickly you get techs. If that was smoothed out, I think you could put that mechanic back in.
If that is not popular, you could scale the science based on the GS scaler. As the GS scales so does the infiltrate's mission yields. Again simple era scale is not sufficient to do the job.
Kidnap Specialists / Forge Cultural Artifacts
So first off, I think the -GPP has to go. Taking away a person GP that they worked on in a city for 30 turns and then it just goes up in smoke....sorry that is just not fun at all.
In terms of the specialist bonuses, on the one hand I do enjoy the timing aspect of these and getting to synergize my specialist yields. But on the other....as I look at my +50 culture musicians in my capital right now...ultimately I don't think stackable yields here is the right path. I think we will either leave it as too good, or its too easy to nerf into uselessness. I really like the concept...but I think we need to do something else with it.
So let me offer this idea:
Recommendation: Combine these into a single counterspy mission "Recruit Local Talent". The classic spy agency recruits university professors to help them kind of thing.
Recruit Local Talent: All specialists in city add +1 to their main yield.
As a counterspy, its set and forget, no stacking concerns. The player can now also beef up specialists in various cities. This gives a fun advantage for counterspying, you actually get a little something for your trouble now.
Target City Defenses
This remains my favorite "screw" mission, as it feels strategic and it creates a giant moment of urgency when it goes off. It needs to be much quicker (see my notes above), and provide more visual feedback, but I can see the potential of this one.
UI Notes
Spoiler :
- I think the Security details (Cities security threshold with bonus/penalty breakdown) should be moved to the "Star Area" of the Spy screen. Aka I should see the security 1 number at brief glance, and when I mouse over the stars I should get the detailed breakdown. I need that info before I want to commit a spy.
- The Spy event screen's information is pretty good, and a button to go back to the city is already being worked on, for the most part I am happy with this screen.
- Notifications seems a bit hit or miss. I am seeing some of them and not others. I would request a notification a few turns before the Target City Defenses mission goes into place, as I need to ensure I am timing my actions properly.
- There doesn't seem to be anything on the city itself that shows it can't heal from the Target City Defenses mission (aka like the surrounded flag).
A note on Turn Times
Spoiler :
Note that my turn times are not just mission times. When I give a number I mean Travel Time + Surveillance Time + Mission time....as that is the actual time to complete a mission.
To me there are two kinds of missions right now:
Timing Important Missions (Target City Defenses, Disrupt Local Production - aka for wonder killing)
For these two missions, there needs to be a good and quick feedback mechanism to allow a player to properly use these missions and time it with other actions they are doing.
I think the absolute maximum for these missions should be 8 turns on standard speed. 8 turns gives me a chance to disrupt a wonder in production, and allows me to use target defenses in an active siege. Any longer than this and the missions become unwieldy, especially disrupt production....the only reason I would ever use this is to delay wonders, and therefore there is no point in starting the mission if the wonder is going to finish before the mission completes.
Timing Independent Missions (Everything else)
Most missions I just do the thing and get the thing, or do a general screw on another player. I don't have to really time things too much to get the benefits of these.
I think a target of 20-30 turns is the right window (roughly in TR time ranges). This ensures some adjustments and flexibility in my missions without the spies becoming too onerous. I could see maybe as quick as 15 turns, but more than that just feels tedious.
General Variability
Right now turn times are heavily swingy based on security, and I think its much too varied. I don't mind that a high security city reduces my yields and slows down my missions a bit....but in the 20 turns goes to 23 turns kind of thing, not 20 to 30. Turns should be relatively consistent. Personally I would love if we removed turn time variance entirely (I made a post detailing that idea here: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/spy-rework-suggestions-here.669495/page-6#post-16087603)
Spy Philosophy: Good for me vs Bad for You
Spoiler :
There is a reason thieves only work outside the capital (and people still complain about them), getting your stuff taken just feels really really bad. Its not fun, so the times we should let spies actually take from another player need to be:
- Rare: True steals need to be a big deal, and appropriately rare. If I'm going to lose stuff, I want it to be a big deal, not a constant non-stop pile on.
- Non-Stacking: If I'm getting hit than their needs to be protections that ensure I can't get hit over and over and over again. Knock me down is bad enough, but to keep kicking me down is even worse. We need to respect that their is lots of incentive in the game to have everyone dogpile the leader with nonstop disruptions if they can.
Quick Note on Era Scaling
Spoiler :
I will detail some thoughts in each post, but as a blanket statement: Era scaling by itself isn't going to work. In most cases, era scaled yields start out strong and get weaker over time. That's generally intentional and completely fine, as they are generated from sources that are supposed to be less relevant over time.
If we use era scaling only to adjust our yields, than spies will automatically become worse over time. So we would either need to let their missions run faster (which means they become more tedious over time), or they need additional scaling to stay relevant. I will post my thoughts below.
Spy Detection and Kill Chances
Spoiler :
Right now these number adjust by a few % points, and sometimes are so low that they don't factor into my decision making. Detection especially, the difference between a regular mission and a "involved" one should be minimum 25% spy detection chance, probably 50% to actually make it a factor in my decision making.
Now kill chances are much more important, but I'm not changing my missions due to a 1-4% kill difference, probably 10% is the lowest lever I would look at.
Disrupt Local Production
Spoiler :
As I mentioned before, I really see this as a Wonder delaying tactic. Conceptually I like that, the issue with Wonders right now is they are so Culture and Science dependent, that the actual hammer part of the wonder is not as much of a factor (except through a GE). If an opponent starts a wonder just 1 more turn ahead of me because of a culture advantage....the amount of hammers it takes to make up for that is actually quite high. So having another lever in the wonder race is interesting. As the wonder "race" is truly that, this is an area of high interest.
I think this mission is best served to be balanced and retooled around wonders. Instead of a general screw that can just be used to strip an enemy capital down to nothing, I think making it a noticeable but non-stackable hit on wonders gives it a solid and unique niche.
My recommendation: Rename to "Sabotage Large Project". Wonders and Projects in the city suffer a -10% production penalty for 10 turns. Prereq: City is working on a project, and is not already suffering from this mission. The mission times should be extremely quick, probably 1-2 turns from when I see the wonder and want to start the delay.
That last piece I think is important to prevent stacking, both from your own spies but also to prevent multiple civs from trying to hit the same person. This way if another civ is already disrupting wonder prod in a city, you don't do the same mission but "waste" your effort.
Raid Local Treasury
Spoiler :
I personally think this one can be removed. I spy for tech, I spy to hinder my opponent, just getting gold in comparison seems like a waste of time. If you do want to keep it its going to need a big scale up to be relevant. Also, it shouldn't take longer than other missions like it does now.
In terms of scaling, one interesting way to scale it is based on your own Great Merchants. Think of it as "the more financial experts my civ has, the better I am able to hack someone else's". So as the GM scales with towns (and whatever scales the GM mission if there is anything), so do the raid missions.
Poison Water Supply
Spoiler :
Honestly, this is just an unfun screw you to other civs. Its either minor enough to not matter, or it can cripple your growth at key times. And its honestly boring, after a few of these you'll just have this nigh permanent -10 to food all the time, nothing interesting about that.
I think this one really should just be removed. It doesn't provide anything of real value to the game.
Radicalize the Rural Citizenry
Spoiler :
Similar to Poison water, this just ensures a steady stream of pain in your civ, nothing you can do except just have an army of workers around to clean up the mess. Its not interesting, its just unfun.
I think there is a way to make this a more important hit...shifting it away from general mayhem and go for the jugular, the strategic resources.
Recommendation: Change to "Sabotage: 1 strategic resource near the city is pillaged. Prereq: A strategic resource is improved near the city, and the mission is not currently active"
Again I think that last clause is important, we don't want all of your strategic resources to be constantly pillaged, as that is not fun either. But a strategic and deliberate removal of strategic resources during war can be a very interesting moment
Infiltrate Local Science Facilities
Spoiler :
So my thought here....lets just go back to the tech steal. The mechanic does all the work for us, it only works if you have a tech I don't, it auto scales, and its a big "fun" moment to get a tech compared to just getting some yields every so often.
I am fine with reducing the strength compared to today's tech steal in favor of a smoother curve, the issue today is you can steal techs like crazy at first, then after a time you will never be able to steal again....and spy level creates a huge variance in how quickly you get techs. If that was smoothed out, I think you could put that mechanic back in.
If that is not popular, you could scale the science based on the GS scaler. As the GS scales so does the infiltrate's mission yields. Again simple era scale is not sufficient to do the job.
Kidnap Specialists / Forge Cultural Artifacts
Spoiler :
So first off, I think the -GPP has to go. Taking away a person GP that they worked on in a city for 30 turns and then it just goes up in smoke....sorry that is just not fun at all.
In terms of the specialist bonuses, on the one hand I do enjoy the timing aspect of these and getting to synergize my specialist yields. But on the other....as I look at my +50 culture musicians in my capital right now...ultimately I don't think stackable yields here is the right path. I think we will either leave it as too good, or its too easy to nerf into uselessness. I really like the concept...but I think we need to do something else with it.
So let me offer this idea:
Recommendation: Combine these into a single counterspy mission "Recruit Local Talent". The classic spy agency recruits university professors to help them kind of thing.
Recruit Local Talent: All specialists in city add +1 to their main yield.
As a counterspy, its set and forget, no stacking concerns. The player can now also beef up specialists in various cities. This gives a fun advantage for counterspying, you actually get a little something for your trouble now.
Target City Defenses
Spoiler :
This remains my favorite "screw" mission, as it feels strategic and it creates a giant moment of urgency when it goes off. It needs to be much quicker (see my notes above), and provide more visual feedback, but I can see the potential of this one.
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